Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[welldaft]

The last couple of months have not been great truth be told. 

But there is absolutely no way we are binning a Manager when we are sitting 8th in the table and having lost less than half our games.  Of course when outstanding games are played Aberdeen will overtake us as might Ross County this midweek or when they play their game in hand. Again it has been a fairly poor run but those are the facts at this moment in time.

I have seen plenty Motherwell teams who have never come back from 2 goals down twice, 1 goal down at Celtic Park and 1 goal down in the 96th minute whilst down to 10 men. No wins but that is still quite impressive and absolutely suggests the players are playing for themselves and the Manager. Whilst that is evident again there is absolutely NO way we will sack the Manager. And in my opinion nor should we.

My thoughts may and will change if we go into January with no wins and in the bottom two. At that point I am sure the Board would act. 

However I will re-emphasise this Manager is working on a smaller budget than the previous two Managers. We have a Senior team of around 18 players. Which means that with a few injuries and suspensions we are down to 13 or 14. So far we are lucky we are not in a right mess. All it will take is another couple of injuries. 

I will say this about Ketts. He has never complained or gone overboard about this. I only recently heard him mention we would need to strengthen in January. I respect him for that. Even Brendan Rogers has bemoaned the lack of quality in the Celtic squad. I mean hello .

So whilst Ketts could be doing better, I genuinely believe he is doing a OK job given the resources at his disposal. I think it would be naive to think any other Manager could do better with the same squad. The cut backs were clearly a necessity but you could argue strongly that if we continue this non winning streak and bump along the bottom of the league it is as much the fault of the Board or the budgets they have made available. 

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by welldaft

[rowsdower]

So, SK said we'd be looking to bring in one or two in january, which isn't a surprise. Where would you see us adding someone?

My assumption is a defender and a midfielder based on our current situation. Ideally a midfielder with some mobility, and a defender that can do what Butcher did last season.

I don't think we have any loanees coming back, nor the option to break any of our loans (not that I'd want to).

Any outs? I don't think we have enough of a squad for that, with three kids on the bench each week. We have spittal, slats, and Kelly all up in the summer, so its possible something could happen with them.

Edited December 3, 2023 by rowsdower

[ropy]

Others have mentioned that if we had collected the points in a different order then folk would be happier.  This dovetails with my oft repeated mantra that a point a game is my target.  We are a point below par which isn’t enough to bin a manager, I accept that the trend is downwards and that things may change.  But they may change for the better!

When did it become the case that the only solution was to sack the manager, we’ve done that before and the definition of insanity is doing the same thing again hoping for a different outcome.

[ropy]

17 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/scottish-premiership/tabellenachminuten/wettbewerb/SC1?saison_id=2023&range=90'%3BFull+Time&time_start=91&time_end=AB

Celtic close the gap at the top of the table with 3 points today from a Jamesy Forrest strike.

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, ropy said:

Others have mentioned that if we had collected the points in a different order then folk would be happier.  This dovetails with my oft repeated mantra that a point a game is my target.  We are a point below par which isn’t enough to bin a manager, I accept that the trend is downwards and that things may change.  But they may change for the better!

When did it become the case that the only solution was to sack the manager, we’ve done that before and the definition of insanity is doing the same thing again hoping for a different outcome.

I agree with the sentiment and I can only echo the point that's been made that it's bad business and bad vibes to be continually emptying managers.

However as @YassinMoutaouakil mentioned in a previous post we've generally had decent finishes to the season when we've changed manager mid-season so that kind of undermines the point that it's insanity.

Broadly it's worked out quite well for us:

On 29/11/2023 at 19:59, YassinMoutaouakil said:

Sort of on that point but we always seem to end seasons on a- relative- high.

2023- finished 7th after a mad run of form.

2022- clinched Europe on the second last day

2021- stayed up comfortably after looking down and out

2020- covid

2019- finished 8th with Turnbull, Hastie etc breaking through 

2018- league campaign petered out, lost the cup final

2017- stayed up on second last day

2016- finished 5th, would have got Europe if Celtic had won the cup

2015- stayed up in the playoffs

2014- finished 2nd on final day

2013- romped to 2nd

2012- finished 3rd

In 11 seasons that probably only leaves 2017/18 one as the only one that didn't unambiguously end on a high, probably overshadowed by the emotion of the cup final. I can't really be arsed going back any further but it generally feels like if we're usually either in the running for something post-split and manage to achieve it, or have coasted to safety fairly comfortably after looking fucked.

On 29/11/2023 at 21:14, capt_oats said:

I suppose the correlation there is how many of those seasons have we changed manager mid-season?

22/23 - Kettlewell replaces Hammell
20/21 - Alexander replaces Robinson
16/17 - Robinson replaces McGhee
15/16 - McGhee replaces Baraclough
14/15 - Baraclough replaces McCall

As as been mentioned before this culture of binning managers on the regular is bad vibes but it does make you wonder whether the wild swings we're seeing is a consequence of this in so much as we're going from one extreme of unsustainable form to the other with absolutely nothing in between.

There's an argument that the job he was asked to do last season ie: pick up the pieces from the situation Hammell left and save our season is an entirely different thing to the longer term project. I suppose it's entirely possible for him to have been the right guy for one but not the other and again I've said it before but it feels like right now he's tying himself in knots and not really helping himself with square pegs in round holes when the approach that gave him his success in the first place was a clarity of vision.

That's not me saying I want him gone or anything but I don't think it's unreasonable for questions to be being asked when you look at the winless run and the fact we haven't kept a clean sheet in 11 league games.

Edited December 3, 2023 by capt_oats

[ropy]

I agree it works out for us, then we have a slump.  I would like to see a manager getting time to build something.  I hoped that would be Robinson but he ran out of ideas too.

I don’t specifically think that Kettlewell is the dream manager for Motherwell he just happens to be in possession just now.

The crowd shouted for McLean to resign year after year then he won a cup.

[ropy]

Anyway it doesn’t look like anyone is challenging us for 8th place in the league today.

[Muzz1886]

20 hours ago, Molotov said:

@Muzz1886 what is your current opinion on Kettlewell?

Personally I think Motherwell have been extremely unlucky in a number of games. 

A new manager “bounce” could be the best option leading into the January shutdown and transfer window. 

I might be going again the current widely held opinion of Kettlewell, however I think he should still have until at least Christmas.

Just taking the last 2 games in isolation; a great point at Celtic Park followed up by a great start yesterday which was undone by poor defensive mistakes, again. From minute 5, you could feel the confidence being sucked out of the team, they're used to chasing a game rather than managing a lead. They didn't have long to wait until we were back in our default position.  There is no doubt that there is a good team spirit (last minute goal rescues another point, again), so the players are playing for him however most of the positions that we've found ourselves in this season have been self inflicted due to individual errors and shite goalkeeping.  

For me, the big difference between this season and last actually isn't KvV, it's because the wing backs aren't of the same quality.  Furlong and Johnston's strength and pace haven't been adequately replaced. Spencer needs to be on the right, and either SoD or Gent on the left.

Overall, the tension in the stands isn't helping the team.  Our fan base needs to be realistic, we're not a big club or business, 9th is about right for us, and we can't keep sacking managers. We're one poor managerial appointment from relegation. We persisted with Robbo after a run just like this one and it worked (the first time anyway) and he turned it around.  Kettlewell has earned his chance until Christmas due to last season's performance.

TLDR; aye, I still back him.

 

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

The minutes we've scored this season is astounding. 

84% of our goals in the second half.

74% of our goals 74 minutes or later.

32% of our goals in the 90th minute or later.

We've only scored one first half home goal (three in total).

We've only scored the first goal four times. Two of which we've conceded the next goal and then failed to win.

We've only scored one goal whilst winning (Biereth vs Hibs). All told, this has probably been the only point all season that we've been "comfortable".

We've lost the first goal eleven times. Positively, we've equalised six times and gone on to draw five or them (Celtic at home being the exception), so at least we don't chuck it. On the other hand, for how often we concede first, we've yet to come back and win.

[Gianfranco]

If we don’t beat County or St Johnstone then he deserves the sack to be honest. 
 

I want him to turn it around but the longer this run goes the tougher it’ll be. 

[Phillips455]

I'd say we need to get a minimum of 12 points out of the 18 available.

Obviously, the Christmas eve Rangers games going to be 0 points (they will get atleast 1 penalty in that game).

The run up is actually a good test of how we are performing since we are playing the teams around us (or normally would be around us).

 

 

 

Ross County - need to win. Honestly hinging the next few games performances around this. Would ensure that we are 3 points above them whilst they have a game in hand.

St Johnstone - they are in a similar position to us. Same could be Said for Ross County and Livingston.

St Mirren - Done very well at the start of this season but have been off the boil for the past few games. 

Rangers - The less stated about this, the better.

Aberdeen - quite a mixed bag. They haven't done well recently but they made it to the league cup final. Who knows how well they will be doing by this time.

Livingston - just as bad as us, yet they won comfortably in our last game.

 

 

One clear issue is conceding. Only 1 clean sheet is absolutley abysmal. Hoping for change but if we don't win the next 2 then a change may have to happen.

[santheman]

When you've got a goalie who doesn't command his box, a defence that is continually ball watching instead of the players they're supposed to be marking and a midfield that doesn't or can't pick up runners into the box then we're always going to concede cheap goals.

All things that should be sorted on the training field and it's up to Kettlewell and the coaches to make sure they are.

[capt_oats]

2 hours ago, ropy said:

I agree it works out for us, then we have a slump.  I would like to see a manager getting time to build something.  I hoped that would be Robinson but he ran out of ideas too.

I don’t specifically think that Kettlewell is the dream manager for Motherwell he just happens to be in possession just now.

The crowd shouted for McLean to resign year after year then he won a cup.

I mean, Robinson was here for 3.5 seasons that's pretty much the shelf life for a manager at a club like Motherwell. He lasted 169 games compared to McCall's 174.

The only other managers we've had to last longer than 100 games in one stint since McLean have been McLeish (156 games), Davies (123 games) and Butcher (175 games).

The other point about Robinson is that he was pragmatic enough to realise when something either wasn't working or when it was simply about grinding things out to shitfest a win.

That run where things fucked up after the Celtic trilogy in his first season amounted to 8 games without a win (draws against Celtic at FP and Dundee at FP) but he was coming off a cup final.

In the season he resigned it was after a run of 8 without a win in the league (we also lost to St Johnstone in the League cup) that run included 3 draws - St Johnstone (a), Aberdeen (h) and United (a).

I was just a wee guy during McLean's early years (my first game was December 1986) and I probably started going regularly around 1989 onward so that window of good stuff matched my formative years. Anyway, I feel like the culture around the fitba' was very different at that time but was McLean prone to going on double digit winless runs?

[YassinMoutaouakil]

Class guys, love it!

 

[ropy]

36 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

 

I was just a wee guy during McLean's early years (my first game was December 1986) and I probably started going regularly around 1989 onward so that window of good stuff matched my formative years. Anyway, I feel like the culture around the fitba' was very different at that time but was McLean prone to going on double digit winless runs?

It felt like winless seasons at a time.  But he was building something.

[CoF]

7 hours ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

I missed yesterday's game (would've watched via Motherwell TV) but I came to the boards last night expecting something a bit more positive than what I saw.  I thought a sort-of positive result snatched from the jaws of defeat would've got at least some people to show a tiny bit of optimism.  Guess I'll have to watch the whole match replay today.   

I think in any other circumstance that would be the case, but that's the fourth game in eleven where it felt like we had reason to be optimistic and the following game has inevitably been shite. A late equaliser at Parkhead then onto an early goal vs Dundee should have given us some badly needed confidence. Instead, after Biereth puts us in front, we play some of the worst football we've seen this season.

[capt_oats]

54 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

Class guys, love it!

I mean, sure...read the room and all that lads but at the same time that's a genuinely lovely goal.

[well fan for life]

9 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

I mean, sure...read the room and all that lads but at the same time that's a genuinely lovely goal.

Always rated that lad Shaw. 

[ropy]

I was happy to credit Shaw for the assist last night but actually he slipped inside one player then slid the ball out and into Wilkinson’s stride.  That’s football, that could catch on.  Well done.

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

I think what @capt_oatssaid yesterday about the "supply teacher" vibes from Kettlewell is spot on. Last season he inherited a squad of about 30 players and was able to use about 14 of them to great effect.

This summer was always going to be a big test. Having 30 odd players someone else picked is a lot different to having 18 with a fair chunk of them picked by you.

3-5-2 suited the lot that he inherited, but I expected him to perhaps be a bit wiser than to go and hang his entire recruitment plan on it this summer. If you look at how we started the season, it was with two wing backs in their 30s, who with all due respect to, aren't going to hit the byline and get crosses in, or carry the ball up the park consistently for you. If you looked at Pape Souare's age and injury record and thought he was your best option, surely you'd maybe think a back four might be better.

I also think with the shape, with the volume and frequency we concede goals at, our three centre backs are very rarely in any kind of proper shape. I look at the 3rd goal yesterday and I'm instantly drawn to thinking "why isn't Spencer tucking in?" but when I take a step back, I'm more thinking "where are the three centre backs?"

My one reason for sympathy for the defenders is that we seem to have to defend relentlessly. Our strikers don't hold on to the ball well enough, currently with Miller out and Goss having departed, we don't have anyone playing clever forward passes and there doesn't seem to be anyone who can carry the ball forward. This might just be my perception, but it seems to be when the ball goes forward, it very quickly comes back.