Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Quatermass]

Just now, capt_oats said:

Again, to be fair, it was Robinson who made that decision. He resigned - it wasn't a sacking.

The story was that much like McCall we were open to keeping him on board.

Better to walk than be pushed in some ways. I wonder whether the board feels like they will seriously damage Kettlewell’s career with a sacking? He’s clearly well liked and got a second dig with us from absolutely nowhere. Very much right place at the right time. This is his last top flight job imo. I’m just utterly perplexed and frustrated by the lot of it. I think there will be a massive amount of regret, even amongst the support, come May.

I hope I’m wrong but the time to wish him all the best in his future endeavours was after County. Plenty time before the window. If we don’t win any of the next three games (extending the run to 17 which is two games short of HALF THE SEASON) then surely there is a big enough stink caused at the main door he is told to do one on Hogmanay. Then we are scrambling to get a new guy in who has to then scramble to get some loans in. Again, a fatal car crash in slow motion.

[ropy]

If Livi never recover, could we reel another club in by drawing 3 or 4 games out of every five.  Kettlewell hailed a master of the dark arts going 8 months without a win and surviving.

[Allroy for Prez]

He could’ve/should’ve went after the 3-0 defeat in Dingwall. The fact the he didn’t and we then subsequently scored a last minute equaliser v Dundee rightly or wrongly meant he probably got the St Johnstone game where once again, rightly or wrongly another last minute equaliser possibly once again saved him. Saturday was the first game in this run since the loss to St Mirren where we could say “probably should’ve won that” but ultimately it still wasn’t a win. 

I fully expect, as I’m sure the board do too to get nothing from Rangers and Aberdeen so after that it’s death or glory v Livi. Fail to win there, no wins in 17, and he should have the decency to just walk out the ground at the final whistle.

Even if we do beat Livi, it’s still only 1 win in 17 so he’s going to have to put together a decent run after that, plus stay in the cup, or it then becomes 1 win in 18/19/20 etc at which point he has to go but the situation is now so far gone. 

When you write it all down like that I think it’s impossible for him to turn it round but we’ve left it too late so I don’t know what we do. 

[capt_oats]

55 minutes ago, Quatermass said:

Better to walk than be pushed in some ways. I wonder whether the board feels like they will seriously damage Kettlewell’s career with a sacking? He’s clearly well liked and got a second dig with us from absolutely nowhere. Very much right place at the right time. This is his last top flight job imo. I’m just utterly perplexed and frustrated by the lot of it. I think there will be a massive amount of regret, even amongst the support, come May.

I get the frustration certainly but I wouldn't say I'm perplexed by it.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say that it's entirely on brand for how the club tend to carry themselves in these sort of situations (and I don't mean that as a dig - genuinely). Generally speaking we tend to give managers the opportunity to dig themselves out a hole and we'll only act as a last resort - whether that's because of the optics of not wanting to be seen as a "sacking" club or whether we're just really nice folk IDK.

Either way, the only manager I can think of that we've bulleted quickly and not given time was Baraclough and I'd guess a large part of that was down to him not getting buy in from the players.

All the rest of them whether it was McCall, McGhee, Robinson, Alexander, Hammell and now Kettlewell had bad runs and were given the opportunity. Two of those resigned, McGhee still got games after being scudded 7-2 by Aberdeen, Hammell was allowed to sign 9 (NINE) new players in a January window and carried on until his position was legitimately untenable.

Given Kettlewell went into this season with a 70%+ win rate, having kept us up comfortably I'd say he had a fair amount of credit in the bank - which you'd think he's long since used up.

[Quatermass]

43 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

I get the frustration certainly but I wouldn't say I'm perplexed by it.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say that it's entirely on brand for how the club tend to carry themselves in these sort of situations (and I don't mean that as a dig - genuinely). Generally speaking we tend to give managers the opportunity to dig themselves out a hole and we'll only act as a last resort - whether that's because of the optics of not wanting to be seen as a "sacking" club or whether we're just really nice folk IDK.

Either way, the only manager I can think of that we've bulleted quickly and not given time was Baraclough and I'd guess a large part of that was down to him not getting buy in from the players.

All the rest of them whether it was McCall, McGhee, Robinson, Alexander, Hammell and now Kettlewell had bad runs and were given the opportunity. Two of those resigned, McGhee still got games after being scudded 7-2 by Aberdeen, Hammell was allowed to sign 9 (NINE) new players in a January window and carried on until his position was legitimately untenable.

Given Kettlewell went into this season with a 70%+ win rate, having kept us up comfortably I'd say he had a fair amount of credit in the bank - which you'd think he's long since used up.

When I say perplexed, I mean with the support. Despite all you have stated and I can’t argue with lots of it, I still thought there would have been a section/minority quite vocally calling for his head. When it eventually does come it will be unrepairable. 

A proper towelling from Rangers could do it but it’s much more likely to come on the 30th. This game vs Livi has seemed almost monumental for months. Many, myself included and for quite a while, have seen this run stretching to that game and circa 5pm on this date being the breaking point for his reign.

Even if he wins a week on Sat, and I really hope he does, he is on a hiding to nothing going forward. 1/17, 1/18 and so on. It would take a decent unbeaten run in the league after the NY, peppered with wins to reset the narrative imo. Sadly, I can’t see it.

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

Regarding Wilkinson taking Bair's chances, if you had Bair's application and athleticism, Wilkinson's finishing, Obika's hold up play and Shaw's pace, you've just about got a striker. It's clear to see how none of them have nailed a spot down.

[ropy]

Just now, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

Regarding Wilkinson taking Bair's chances, if you had Bair's application and athleticism, Wilkinson's finishing, Obika's hold up play and Shaw's pace, you've just about got a striker. It's clear to see how none of them have nailed a spot down.

Mika?

[ropy]

22 minutes ago, Quatermass said:

When I say perplexed, I mean with the support. Despite all you have stated and I can’t argue with lots of it, I still thought there would have been a section/minority quite vocally calling for his head. When it eventually does come it will be unrepairable. 

 

Maybe the 20 of us on here aren’t representative?

[2426255]

28 minutes ago, Quatermass said:

This game vs Livi has seemed almost monumental for months. Many, myself included and for quite a while, have seen this run stretching to that game and circa 5pm on this date being the breaking point for his reign.

I thought the St Johnstone game was supposed to be the defining game?

[ropy]

13 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

I thought the St Johnstone game was supposed to be the defining game?

We are a fickle lot.

[Stevie Kirk]

41 minutes ago, Quatermass said:

When I say perplexed, I mean with the support. Despite all you have stated and I can’t argue with lots of it, I still thought there would have been a section/minority quite vocally calling for his head. When it eventually does come it will be unrepairable. 

A proper towelling from Rangers could do it but it’s much more likely to come on the 30th. This game vs Livi has seemed almost monumental for months. Many, myself included and for quite a while, have seen this run stretching to that game and circa 5pm on this date being the breaking point for his reign.

Even if he wins a week on Sat, and I really hope he does, he is on a hiding to nothing going forward. 1/17, 1/18 and so on. It would take a decent unbeaten run in the league after the NY, peppered with wins to reset the narrative imo. Sadly, I can’t see it.

Taking yesterday in isolation I.e. a relatively tough away fixture, the effort was there from all the players. They were throwing their bodies on the line and showing a determination to stay competitive and in the game. The support could see the effort from all the players and stuck with the team for the full 90 minutes.

I think the players are still with the manager at the moment and are trying their best. Granted a couple of them aren’t up to much - bad recruitment or not being backed with funds who knows.

Our lack of a credible alternative formation is killing us. We could really do with a tricky winger ( a Giboly Ariyibi clone would be dandy) to bring on in tight games but we only have Luca Ross . I think the fans realise that SK has had to radically reduce the wage bill and that coupled with the bad run of injuries has made his job even more difficult. He has however shot himself in the foot by signing known sicknotes Soure and Obika. 

In summary he still has some v limited credit in the bank but it is dwindling week by week  .Livingston at home is do or die as far as I am concerned . Hopefully though, he can pull a rabbit out the hat in the next couple of games - if the players show the same application as they did yesterday anything is possible.

 

 

 

 

[capt_oats]

25 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

I thought the St Johnstone game was supposed to be the defining game?

I think you’ve maybe misunderstood or confused/conflated some posts.

The St Johnstone game that a number of people have referenced recently was last season - a 2-0 defeat at Fir Park that effectively marked the beginning of the end for Hammell where it was obvious to everyone that the players had chucked it/Hammell was done.

Although, having said that coming off the back of getting scudded 3-0 in Dingwall it’s pretty clear that the game against them at Fir Park the other week was significant.

Edited December 17, 2023 by capt_oats

[YassinMoutaouakil]

My gut feeling is still that Kettlewell will turn it around enough to probably get the immediate heat off him by the end of the January and that we'll stay up. I do think it'll probably be our most nervy end of season since the playoff one though. Everybody outside Livi and ourselves rightly now look at least reasonably competent, so even if we do start picking up a few wins it'll be a lot of looking over our shoulder.

[2426255]

6 hours ago, capt_oats said:

I think you’ve maybe misunderstood or confused/conflated some posts.

I don't agree or think I was conflating ideas. I posted the quotes below that made me think what I wrote, so you can judge for yourself if you like. I've hidden the quotes so it doesn't take up a whole page.

Spoiler

 

On 07/12/2023 at 06:58, eliphas said:

Kettlewell seems like he's getting Saturday. Anything but a win and he will be done I reckon. Has to be. 

 

On 07/12/2023 at 18:40, Handsome_Devil said:

Time (Saturday) will tell but a 3-0 capitulation to a relegation rival is some going. I strongly suspect Tuesday was the players beginning to say 'change it' and I also suspect action will be taken if they say it again in Saturday.

 

On 07/12/2023 at 20:53, 'WellDel said:

I really don't see us getting a result on Saturday to help his cause any. It's definitely the death throes of his reign.

 

On 07/12/2023 at 22:50, YassinMoutaouakil said:

For me, he deserves the next game or two but they need to be pretty significant steps in the positive direction in terms of performances and results.

 

On 07/12/2023 at 23:10, ropy said:

Kettlewell has an opportunity against a St Johnstone team who have been largely inconsistent this season and perhaps one last chance against a St Mirren team that have picked up the same number of points as us in the last 5 games.

 

On 09/12/2023 at 16:41, Handsome_Devil said:

A shame we wasted three winnable games when we could have used the window post-hearts but I can understand why they were given as a last chance.

 

[Handsome_Devil]

6 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

My gut feeling is still that Kettlewell will turn it around enough to probably get the immediate heat off him by the end of the January and that we'll stay up. 

I obviously hope you're right but the fixture list is a double-edged sword in that regard - we resume league business with three winnable games in a week and a half and losing the first of them in Perth on the 27th will effectively kill any narrative changing hopes stone dead.

[ML4]

What is also likely with the manager situation is that there is no senior member of staff present and nearby every day like previously. Less tuned in to what is going on and then making decisions on his future from afar.

[eliphas]

10 hours ago, 2426255 said:

I thought the St Johnstone game was supposed to be the defining game?

Various people have said various things as they've got to the end of their various tethers with Kettlewell. So I think saying the St J was the defining game as a whole isn't right really. 

For me he would have been gone games ago. The Ross C game was the tipping point personally. But I did call for him before that 

[2426255]

Just now, eliphas said:

Various people have said various things as they've got to the end of their various tethers with Kettlewell. So I think saying the St J was the defining game as a whole isn't right really. 

For me he would have been gone games ago. The Ross C game was the tipping point personally. But I did call for him before that 

Fair enough cheers, so is the Livi game the tipping point or not then?

[eliphas]

5 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

Fair enough cheers, so is the Livi game the tipping point or not then?

My point has been tipped. So I'm not sure I can tip it further.

[Quatermass]

6 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

Fair enough cheers, so is the Livi game the tipping point or not then?

It should be. Rangers at home and Aberdeen away are different challenges. It’s a natural end in the way that it is the last game of the year, the last before the window opens and the last before the winter break. As it’s bottom vs second bottom and the last team Livi beat was us………if we get to the end of that game with the winless run still intact at 17 and counting, anyone still in favour of Kettlewell being in charge needs their nut checked. In my opinion anyway.