Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[welldaft]

1 minute ago, Busta Nut said:

Been here for a while. 

Guy is a snake oil salesman. 

You may well be proved right Busta.

But what is the difference between you making the comment above and those Well fans saying he is the second coming and will solve all our problems and is exactly what we need to take the club forwards ?

The truth is generally in between. My own feelings are I lean closer to your view than those on Face Book (who have been quoted on here). I am not on FB and have never ever had a desire to sign up. 

I think the WS can achieve around 75% of what he is proposing and even dare I say it pinch some of his ideas. But part of me thinks he has the experience and contacts to at least try and get us a wider global audience.  For how long and at what success remains to be seen. Even those on the WS have said they could work alongside him. Now whether that is being diplomatic or genuine I certainly don’t know. 

It has not changed how I will vote but I get a feeling it might for some others…..

[Handsome_Devil]

17 minutes ago, Vietnam91 said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Holden

Two years in, buyback enacted:

Green ("Investments" - lot of poetic justice here, 200k of it is a levy) = £1m

Blue (Costs) = £2.81m

Red (Income "projected") = £0.5m

Anyone else see not a £1.31m hole here? If the WS proposal document magicked up money for spending way above revenue streams they'd be pilloried.

So £1.31m in the red, no income raised by the WS for 2 years to contribute the mandated amount, £600k needed to ensure Erik's payments are covered and £30k for his trouble.

Can we get fucking serious, please for the love God!!!!!!

I appreciate this is a more a convo for after the vote, but a 'black hole' doesn't have to be a problem (I am pro us investing and think the current total aversion many have to any debt is misplaced). It's how the risk of it is carried that's the issue, us having virtually all of it and Erik none is why he should be told gtf.

It'll probably be funded by selling Bair and Miller anyway...

But if not, and if we want to increase revenues under the Society, as is universally agreed is needed, the accounts will be red for the next couple of years. Going to a bank for a loan to invest in infrastructure is absolutely preferable to standing still.

Improved hospitality, encouraging more time in FP, better facilities to attract top youth players, absolutely anything real (selling off the FP name is abstract) costs money first and brings in revenue later. 

We're all capitalists now comrade

Edited Friday at 08:34 by Handsome_Devil

[Handsome_Devil]

4 minutes ago, welldaft said:

It has not changed how I will vote but I get a feeling it might for some others…..

I've no doubt it will but there's always been an issue that people only read headlines or the pro side of the deal, not the con. 

There'll be a tough two weeks to come but I suspect the Society board will have the boots on the ground and the organisation required to carry the day. 

[Vietnam91]

I also have no issue with speculating to accumulating however its the amount and nature of it here and the double standard that will employed by some of glossing over this huge figure.

When we have figures like this I can assure everyone, suddenly Lennon Miller's value is back up to top dollar, he won't be getting an injury tomorrow and his form will not drop.

I look forward to what we can all do up the back of the Hunter between the two pie stalls and toilets. I'll certainly head off 30 mins earlier to take in that experience.

[capt_oats]

17 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:

I don't really disagree with most of that and see an appeal from the upside he offers. But the majority of the details, selling the stadium name, banking on youth development etc is absolutely bog standard, and can easily be done without him.

The TV bit has always been interesting and exciting for sure but handing over control, probably killing the Society (fair play to you for increasing if it goes through but I seriously doubt there'd be a net gain here in terms of cash or engagement), losing the safety net around FP...it's not just taking some risk, it's taking an absolutely massive risk on the word of a total random, who still refuses to specify how he intends to profit, for £1.5-£1.6m in real terms. Given we'll sell Bair for about a million and have Miller waiting to go, jumping on a risk/reward which is so skewed for an amount that low just seems daft.

Exactly this.

Way back when his name was first mentioned I thought it would be the TV side of things (in general, not a fucking documentary) that would have been of most interest to him and where he might have seen an opportunity for influence and possible ROI.

However the way that the whole thing has played out it's just a massive "No" based, as you say, on the risk involved.

The key part on the risk element for me boils down to the fact that I have absolutely zero faith that the Executive Board have done anything like the required due diligence as they've been far more concerned with marginalising the WS. The reporting of Feeley's comments from the other night only served to confirm that.

I notice that Barmack's document makes mention of the event of the WS defaulting in a footnote:

Quote

"Should TWS not be able to sustain these payments, our firm belief is that this should not be a “backdoor” to further ownership for any of the minority owners. Possible remedies could include extending the term, or some further reduction in debt. Our thinking is that we would need to discuss the most practical solution with TWS that maintains their majority ownership and doesn’t change the ownership structure of Fir Park."

OK, fine but these are "possible" remedies - it's not confirmed. If *this* (with all the implications it carries) hasn't been addressed by the Executive Board there's a reasonable conclusion that can be drawn that there's other red flags that the Executive Board haven't addressed.

[Busta Nut]

9 minutes ago, welldaft said:

 

But what is the difference between you making the comment above and those Well fans saying he is the second coming and will solve all our problems and is exactly what we need to take the club forwards ?

Can't answer for those folks, I will say I've had a look at a few of their profiles and if they told me the grass was green I'd go check.

I've read almost everything EB has said, I've saw him reply on here, I've saw the conversations he's had. He's not someone I'd want to have "in charge" at MFC when he effectively knows f**k all about us and I'd bet he knows f**k all about fitba as well. 

[welldaft]

3 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:

I've no doubt it will but there's always been an issue that people only read headlines or the pro side of the deal, not the con. 

There'll be a tough two weeks to come but I suspect the Society board will have the boots on the ground and the organisation required to carry the day. 

True. I get a sense that the majority on here will vote no and rightly so imho.

But then I used to travel weekly between Edinburgh and London and did not think Brexit would happen. Both cities voted 60% against iirc.
If only I visited Cleethorpes etc I might I have realised. 

It may be closer than the views on here but I hope sense will prevail. Again the terms are not palatable and if the Exec Board did their job properly then it might have been a deal i could get on board with. 

[capt_oats]

5 minutes ago, Busta Nut said:

Can't answer for those folks, I will say I've had a look at a few of their profiles and if they told me the grass was green I'd go check.

Aye, there's one boy I've noticed is very-Pro Barmack and a quick look at the Reform UK RTs on his timeline is enough to make it clear not only is he a c**t but he's an absolute lost cause.

[Handsome_Devil]

7 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

OK, fine but these are "possible" remedies - it's not confirmed. If *this* (with all the implications it carries) hasn't been addressed by the Executive Board there's a reasonable conclusion that can be drawn that there's other red flags that the Executive Board haven't addressed.

No doubt and frankly, him putting whatever collaborative language he wants here means bugger all - ultimately what's left of the Society will have to either fulfil its commitment or find a compromise agreeable to the other party. At this point EB obviously could be generous and let it slide but he could also demand virtually any pound of flesh he wants...we yet again circle round to the question of do we want to risk our long-term viability on McMahon, Feely and Dickie assuring us he's a good guy? Er, no.

[StAndrew7]

This boils down to two things for me:

1) Am I quite interested in some of what he's proposing? Yes, I am (with some obvious caveats, which we've done to death).

2) Do I want to give de-facto control of my Club to him, based on his proposal? No, no I do not.

Also, HoT on the Club website state this:

Quote

No change to the club name, colours, home ground can be made without the agreement of 75% of the shareholders.

Barmack's plan wants to have stadium sponsorship, worth £100k annually, in year 2. So if that doesn't go through (although let's be honest, it will do, if this whole thing does) strike off £100k of his plan immediately.

Edited Friday at 09:07 by StAndrew7

[thisGRAEME]

Could someone explain to me why 50k people would download a Motherwell FC app? For a club with around 5k season ticket holders in good or bad, that's... Ambitious.

The amount of marketing budget that would require would be astronomical. If it's £100k for app development, you're looking at, what, 3 or 4 times that to even get close to that number? You'd have to reach, with some cigarette packet maths, 200k odd, already vaguely engaged people? Are there 200k vaguely engaged Motherwell fans, in a best case scenario? 

In general, with retail apps, you're looking at an install to purchase rate of 1-2%. So even if you did hit your ambitious target of 50,000 people, you're looking at around 500 people spending in the app. 

There isn't enough "exclusive content" in the world to make people hop over the barrier off of the channels they already use to get even close to those numbers.

[Antiochas III]

1 hour ago, Ill Ray said:

I kinda liked the Barmack proposal more than the Well Society’s ngl. 

You like the idea of spending circa £200k (out of supposed £500k) on something that cost £0 to installed 2 years ago?  

 

 

 

[Vietnam91]

1 minute ago, thisGRAEME said:

Could someone explain to me why 50k people would download a Motherwell FC app? For a club with around 5k season ticket holders in good or bad, that's... Ambitious.

The amount of marketing budget that would require would be astronomical. If it's £100k for app development, you're looking at, what, 3 or 4 times that to even get close to that number? You'd have to reach, with some cigarette packet maths, 200k odd, already vaguely engaged people? Are there 200k vaguely engaged Motherwell fans, in a best case scenario? 

In general, with retail apps, you're looking at an install to purchase rate of 1-2%. So even if you did hit your ambitious target of 50,000 people, you're looking at around 500 people spending in the app. 

There isn't enough "exclusive content" in the world to make people hop over the barrier off of the channels they already use to get even close to those numbers.

Shhhhhhh don't bring real world experience and expectations into this little private Xanadu please.

[StAndrew7]

Just put this onto SO, so Ctrl C +  Ctrl V:

I have absolutely no wish to be part of the "I told you so" brigade in 2/4/6 years time, but if this goes through and the Club is left in a mess, who will be left to pick up the pieces?

The Society will more than likely implode (although fair play to @Ill Ray for saying they'd increase their contributions) and more or less cease to be the presence it is. The newly appointed Board will no doubt bend to Erik's will, reduce its loan as an equivalent investment when it can't meet its obligations (excellent work on that btw @David1979) and as a result the security of the stadium/land will go... then what?

This might seem petty, but the people who vote this through will flip like a coin and look to those who opposed all this for the solutions when it goes tits up... If I'm wrong in all of this, I will absolutely hold up my hands and admit that I was. Will those that voted for it, if/when this all goes wrong?

So we start again, and save the Club, again. We'll become the next Clyde/Airdrie/whatever and that'll be that.

All because someone stood up and said "NETFLIX! DOCUMENTARY! SNAPCHAT!"

[Swello]

1 hour ago, Ill Ray said:

I believe that there is room for growth in globalisation and think that a club from the spfl with a docuseries could hugely benefit from being first to market with that  in terms of growing interest internationally and even growing the Well Society outside of the UK.

I've carefully read through the proposal (that has only been produced because the WS delivered their plan remember) - and this is the point where the difference is for me. 

The WS plan is rooted in community and local stuff - the unique parts of the  Barmack one is based on global stuff. My view/judgement is that Motherwell has limited potential as a "global brand" - I honestly can't see what long-term interest we would have for people with no connections and doing a pale imitation of the Wrexham thing (which I find totally cringeworthy, so I'll admit my bias there) doesn't hold any interest to me. I simply don't buy the premise that global is the best strategy for a working class community club.

I think doing the more prosaic stuff in the local community as laid out in the WS will do far more to secure the long term future of the club than something that feels very short term and ephemeral. I don't think risking the existence of the WS, fan ownership in general and the trade-offs in the governance of the club is worth the potential upside.

 

[Antiochas III]

Only thing missing was NFT Web3 development for 100% crank...  

[Desp]

I'm sorry, but any fully grown adult who thinks Motherwell FC can have any sort of global reach can go and stand in the "mug punter" pile. Jesus Christ! 

When you're there, give me a DM and I'll give you an exclusive offer on the magic beans that I'm punting. 

[Vietnam91]

I was the focus of a whole nation of 90m people. I was the headline coverage for most TV and press stories for two months. Every night there was a five minute segment on their equivalent of the six o'clock news on my progress, showing my stats and x-rays (not ideal). The day I left and wheeled through the lobby it was six deep behind barricades and the same outside and onto the street outside the hospital ground. While I was transferred to the airport with 4 police outriders flanking my ambulance. I was met at Heathrow by the ambassador.

It was humbling yet truly unbelievable.

In every picture taken through my recuperation I had a C&A scarf draped round my neck with the clubs name printed on it in capitals.

In a culture that grasps on to, aligns and embraces outsiders I'd be interested to know how many members the Hanoi and Saigon chapters of the Motherwell Supporters Clubs have and how much we've made from that particular global outreach.

[thisGRAEME]

1 hour ago, Ill Ray said:

I believe that there is room for growth in globalisation and think that a club from the spfl with a docuseries could hugely benefit from being first to market with that  in terms of growing interest internationally and even growing the Well Society outside of the UK. WS growth and supporter growth I’m pessimistic about domestically with us being so close to the Old Firm that’s weighed us down significantly and limited how ‘big’ a club we can be here this just seems like it could be a change from the status quo by trying some left field ideas.

I don't disagree with the principle here, and would be very open to exploring possibilities, but there's also a massive disconnect between "make a series" and "make money".

Using the two examples which seems common in both Wrexham and Drive to Survive, these are different things to what we have, imo.

The Wrexham thing is based on winning, continuing to win, and continuing to progress. For this, as they acknowledge readily, they need "f**k off money", which Reynolds provides. They're also running at a massive annual loss to support this, with interest payments making their way to the owners on a monthly basis. 

Yes; they have been very successful, but they will (again, imo) reach a ceiling shortly where there next step requires a colossal leap. Where that leaves them "project" wise is anyone's guess. 

If you're looking at drive to survive; again, this was successful! It was created to drive interest in their product and as such; increase competition and investment in their global TV rights, which they did.

We aren't doing this, and don't have that obvious aim to drive to other that "raise subscriptions". 

This isn't to say I would be against anything like this, but if you're making the plan, and sharing the plan; what's the aim, what's the target, where's it going, what channel is it on? Like so much of this, it's just woolly, and if we're giving up so much to make this happen, then I need that information.

[StAndrew7]

6 minutes ago, Vietnam91 said:

I was the focus of a whole nation of 90m people. I was the headline coverage for most TV and press stories for two months. Every night there was a five minute segment on their equivalent of the six o'clock news on my progress, showing my stats and x-rays (not ideal). The day I left and wheeled through the lobby it was six deep behind barricades and the same outside and onto the street outside the hospital ground. While I was transferred to the airport with 4 police outriders flanking my ambulance. I was met at Heathrow by the ambassador.

It was humbling yet truly unbelievable.

In every picture taken through my recuperation I had a C&A scarf draped round my neck with the clubs name printed on it in capitals.

In a culture that grasps on to, aligns and embraces outsiders I'd be interested to know how many members the Hanoi and Saigon chapters of the Motherwell Supporters Clubs have and how much we've made from that particular global outreach.

I want to greeny this, but also don't want to greeny it because of what you went through for that to happen...

Also, it's Ho Chi Minh City now, mate. Remember Erik's lads lost that one.