Double Winning St Johnstone FC Thread

[Auld Davie Cox]

Ormond's attacking style was a joy to watch and he was unlucky not to win silverware at Saints. Tommy has written his own place in our history books but his team couldn't live with Ormond's.

[Ludo*1]

13 hours ago, nelsjfc said:

In recent games against United and Livi, I think we've seen sides know exactly how we are going to play and set out to counter-act it. It was always going to happen and its something Wright had great success doing to other sides (McNamara's United, McCann's Dundee etc). I hate the phrase, but I think it becomes a case of "trust the process". That's why it was a bit disappointing to see the way the game went on Saturday, particularly first half.

 

There's things undoubtedly to be worked on, defending set-pieces for a start, but I can't see Davidson changing and the inference seems to be the players are buying into it too. Despite all the frustration, I've enjoyed watching us play this season. My main worry is what feels like a lack of mental toughness that we had under Wright.

 

And agree Clark wasn't great at the second goal. Started to come and stops leaving him in an awkward position without narrowing the angle. As said though, the goal was far from his fault. It was a goal indicative of the current issues; bad decision by attackers then two defenders not concentrating on defending because we had the ball.

 

 

Did he? 

Dundee 3-2 St Johnstone
St Johnstone 0-2 Dundee
Dundee 0-4 St Johnstone
Dundee 2-1 St Johnstone
St Johnstone 1-0 Dundee

McCann had a superior record against Wright despite being a pretty terrible manager.

Interestingly, it's strange to see some of you lot on here start to pick away at his achievements. Surely, the only way of quantifying who the best ever is, is the person that's won you the most? I was never around to see Bob Shankly's Dundee team but I can categorically state he was Dundee's greatest ever manager as he led us to the top flight title. We've won cups and had stints in Europe since then and I'm sure we've played more expansive football at some point, but that's the best. Surely, the same should apply to the man that won you your only major trophy AND led you to your highest finishes as well?

 

[mizfit]

Tommy Wright will always be in my eyes the best manager in my lifetime.

My grandad however leans down the route slightly of Ormond, only because he has a fond memory of taking my dad, uncle and aunt as kids to watch them beat Hamburg and qualify for their first cup final.

My dad leans towards Wright as he can’t really remember too much of ormonds side.

[The Marly]

If we're 5 or 6 players away from being able to in a shape then we shouldn't be playing it and we should do what we've done for years - play to our strengths and build from that. It's clear the 5-2-3 works for us away from home because we're afforded more room in behind, but it's equally clear that it doesn't work at home. All the pretty patterns in the world don't change the fact we've managed 3 goals from open play in 10 matches against top flight teams at home this season. I hope Davidson is learning, but he seems to be pretty stubbornly sticking to his guns and hoping things change at home, and opposition managers have realised that as well.
McInnes' post match interview against us - our first home game - he set out what we were going to do and how he and his team successfully beat it, in about 7 seconds.
 

I agree, good post.

[The Marly]

Even then, difficult to measure because everyone will see through a different lens and apply different criteria. And the context can't be compared. How do you measure Wright against Totten, who took us from the bottom of Scottish football (do you take marks off Wright for inheriting a team already playing European football)? Do you measure quality of football (I thought Lomas's teams were more exciting). Do you wonder what history might have made of things if we'd had a less favourable cup draw in 2014 (or to put it another way would we think of McInnes if we'd got past a better quality Rangers side in that semi-final penalty shoot-out years before)? It's not something you can answer definitively.
As for success, no question. On domestic results – things you can actually measure – Wright wins.

The other thing Wright wins on is longevity. No other manager comes close in that regard. I think you're right that others have played more exciting football to be fair.

[The Marly]

Did he? 
Dundee 3-2 St Johnstone
St Johnstone 0-2 Dundee
Dundee 0-4 St Johnstone
Dundee 2-1 St Johnstone
St Johnstone 1-0 Dundee
McCann had a superior record against Wright despite being a pretty terrible manager.
Interestingly, it's strange to see some of you lot on here start to pick away at his achievements. Surely, the only way of quantifying who the best ever is, is the person that's won you the most? I was never around to see Bob Shankly's Dundee team but I can categorically state he was Dundee's greatest ever manager as he led us to the top flight title. We've won cups and had stints in Europe since then and I'm sure we've played more expansive football at some point, but that's the best. Surely, the same should apply to the man that won you your only major trophy AND led you to your highest finishes as well?
 

Dundee won cups and had stints in Europe? Just how fucking old do you think we are?

[Mr Positive, sometimes.]

12 minutes ago, The Marly said:

2 hours ago, Ludo*1 said:

Did he? 
Dundee 3-2 St Johnstone
St Johnstone 0-2 Dundee
Dundee 0-4 St Johnstone
Dundee 2-1 St Johnstone
St Johnstone 1-0 Dundee
McCann had a superior record against Wright despite being a pretty terrible manager.
Interestingly, it's strange to see some of you lot on here start to pick away at his achievements. Surely, the only way of quantifying who the best ever is, is the person that's won you the most? I was never around to see Bob Shankly's Dundee team but I can categorically state he was Dundee's greatest ever manager as he led us to the top flight title. We've won cups and had stints in Europe since then and I'm sure we've played more expansive football at some point, but that's the best. Surely, the same should apply to the man that won you your only major trophy AND led you to your highest finishes as well?
 

Dundee won cups and had stints in Europe? Just how fucking old do you think we are?

I bet we have the oldest average age of a season ticket holder in the Premiership though

[RandomGuy.]

3 hours ago, Kyle said:

If we're 5 or 6 players away from being able to in a shape then we shouldn't be playing it and we should do what we've done for years - play to our strengths and build from that. It's clear the 5-2-3 works for us away from home because we're afforded more room in behind, but it's equally clear that it doesn't work at home. All the pretty patterns in the world don't change the fact we've managed 3 goals from open play in 10 matches against top flight teams at home this season. I hope Davidson is learning, but he seems to be pretty stubbornly sticking to his guns and hoping things change at home, and opposition managers have realised that as well.

He has tried to mix things up, but it generally brings about worse performances. First half v Kilmarnock away, away to Livingston, then first half v Livingston, from memory weren't 5-2-3 set ups, and were arguably the worst performances of the season.

I'd like to see us try a 4 at the back system with two wingers at home, but when Conway and MOH are both injured who plays on the wings?

Squad is unbalanced but I'm unsure how much more could've been done there this Summer. Obvious question over whether Melamed should've been signed ahead of a winger, but he has played wide in the past.

[Mr Positive, sometimes.]

@RandomGuy. They'll test my theory of us not defending set prices very well then

 

Ps - interesting stats though!

Edited December 15, 2020 by Mr Positive, sometimes.

[tree house tam]

37 minutes ago, Mr Positive, sometimes. said:

@RandomGuy. They'll test my theory of us not defending set prices very well then

 

Ps - interesting stats though!

I thought we've defended our set prices quite well. Clear and concise about why we are charging slightly higher than the average.

[Mr Positive, sometimes.]

1 hour ago, tree house tam said:

I thought we've defended our set prices quite well. Clear and concise about why we are charging slightly higher than the average.

We've conceded a few from them recently. Mostly from free kicks lumped into the box from deep though thinking about it. The straight ones "should" be easier to defend. 

Motherwell goal in the cup, which was abysmal. Free header again on Saturday and lost a goal as examples. 

Also lucky not to lose goals from free headers against Killie & Motherwell in the league as well. Broadfoot (hit the bar) at Gallagher both missing significant chances.

These are all from memory though rather than stat based and was something that RG and me discussed few weeks ago. I'll leave the stat analysis to him

[Kyle]

3 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

He has tried to mix things up, but it generally brings about worse performances. First half v Kilmarnock away, away to Livingston, then first half v Livingston, from memory weren't 5-2-3 set ups, and were arguably the worst performances of the season.

I'd like to see us try a 4 at the back system with two wingers at home, but when Conway and MOH are both injured who plays on the wings?

Squad is unbalanced but I'm unsure how much more could've been done there this Summer. Obvious question over whether Melamed should've been signed ahead of a winger, but he has played wide in the past.

At home? I don't think he has. It's always the same back 8, the only variable is whether we have 2 up top with an attacking centre mid or 1 up top with 2 number 10s that drift wide.

I remember the Kilmarnock match differently - I thought we started with the usual and changed to a back 4 after Killie scored and Millen got sent off.

Livi away is fair but I'm talking about home games. That performance probably explains why he's been reluctant to change it more though.

The squad is very unbalanced. If its so unbalanced to the point where we can't actually change shape then the manager needs to assess whether it's appropriate to offer the 3 out of contract players extended deals if it means we can't bring anyone else in. 

 

[PauloPerth]

7 hours ago, Ludo*1 said:

 

Interestingly, it's strange to see some of you lot on here start to pick away at his achievements. Surely, the only way of quantifying who the best ever is, is the person that's won you the most? I was never around to see Bob Shankly's Dundee team but I can categorically state he was Dundee's greatest ever manager as he led us to the top flight title. We've won cups and had stints in Europe since then and I'm sure we've played more expansive football at some point, but that's the best. Surely, the same should apply to the man that won you your only major trophy AND led you to your highest finishes as well?

 

Wright is comfortably the most successful (European qualification and cup success), but Ormond's teams were playing against rangers and Celtic teams that played in european finals.  Willie Ormond's team were well before my time, but I think you have to take into account the standard of teams they were up against as well.

 

[RandomGuy.]

3 hours ago, Mr Positive, sometimes. said:

@RandomGuy. They'll test my theory of us not defending set prices very well then

 

Ps - interesting stats though!

Aye seems like it's a big part of their threat. 

Fwiw xG conceded from set pieces was around 4 (from memory, its around that figure, can check later if you're that interested, just finishing my work though), and is around the 4th lowest in the league. Having 29.3% from set pieces was the 2nd highest though.

[Mr Positive, sometimes.]

55 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Aye seems like it's a big part of their threat. 

Fwiw xG conceded from set pieces was around 4 (from memory, its around that figure, can check later if you're that interested, just finishing my work though), and is around the 4th lowest in the league. Having 29.3% from set pieces was the 2nd highest though.

Would seem somewhat an odd decision to go with Booth over Mccart considering their ariel theat. 

Suppose doesn't matter though if we don't let them have the ball!

[RandomGuy.]

Just now, Mr Positive, sometimes. said:

Would seem somewhat an odd decision to go with Booth over Mccart considering their ariel theat. 

Suppose doesn't matter though if we don't let them have the ball!

Booth offers more than McCart in attack, so maybes thats played a part in that switch?

Would like to think we'll be harder to break down in this set up, if it is what we think.

Attacking I dunno, but getting McCann/Davidson in/around the box can only be a positive IMO.

[Mr Positive, sometimes.]

Edited December 15, 2020 by Mr Positive, sometimes.

[RandomGuy.]

6 minutes ago, Mr Positive, sometimes. said:

Aye, especially with the keeper they have.

Game for Guy "shoot on sight" Melamed?

[Mr Positive, sometimes.]

12 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Aye, especially with the keeper they have.

Game for Guy "shoot on sight" Melamed?

As long as he can hit the target it would be considered an improvement. 

We've done alright as we've always done this season but the final ball and finishing is REEKING. 

[PauloPerth]

Take your ball playing centre halves and ram them so far up your arse.  Their job is to fucking defend.  For as long as I can remember in Scottish football, centre backs will come along that spray passes about from the back and everyone starts wanking themselves into a frenzy because they look cultured and play like continental centre halves.  Then folk realise they're actually average as f**k at defending.

3 centre backs on the park against a lower league team who had created very little and we can't even see out extra time without conceding.  It's the same every time we score in a game.  They're all decent centre backs, but we've got them trying to think they are there as playmakers.  They should be coming off proud they've got a clean sheet, not that they had a 95% pass completion rate.  Give me a Frazer Wright, Steven Anderson, Jim Weir type every time over what we're currently getting.

If we were creating lots of chances and scoring goals from their involvement in play then fair enough, but we don't.  Being able to pass is a bonus, not a prerequisite for a centre back at our level.  Time to go back to basics and get putting the hours in on the training park shaping our defence when we're defending, not just when we're trying to play out from the back.

 

And as for our finishing...