Follow Follow Rangers. Season 2023/24

[bennett]

29 minutes ago, Romeo said:

Serious question.  

What are the benefits from a footballing perspective of being a fan owned club?

 

 

 

I'm in two minds about this, fan ownership would always intend to put the best interests of the club first.  But you could also end up with the heart overruling the head in some instances. 

I think it's more about  safeguarding the club rather than any footballing reasons, it's a lot of money not going into the club.

[Romeo]

I'm in two minds about this, fan ownership would always intend to put the best interests of the club first.  But you could also end up with the heart overruling the head in some instances. 
I think it's more about  safeguarding the club rather than any footballing reasons, it's a lot of money not going into the club.

Having some fan representation is a good thing. But I would agree with what you say. If Rangers rely heavily on loans from shareholders so heavily at the moment, would club 1872 be expected to do the same thing?

[G51]

Just now, Romeo said:

6 minutes ago, bennett said:

I'm in two minds about this, fan ownership would always intend to put the best interests of the club first.  But you could also end up with the heart overruling the head in some instances. 
I think it's more about  safeguarding the club rather than any footballing reasons, it's a lot of money not going into the club.

Having some fan representation is a good thing. But I would agree with what you say. If Rangers rely heavily on loans from shareholders so heavily at the moment, would club 1872 be expected to do the same thing?

I think part of the idea behind the three year timescale is that the Club will be self-sufficient by then. The Investment Years will be over.

The advantage is that you have a say in how things are run, and you can prevent unscrupulous owners taking major decisions if you have over 25%, which C1872 will have in this deal. Special resolutions require 75% of the shareholding to vote for them, and all the big decisions are special resolutions.

[Romeo]

I think part of the idea behind the three year timescale is that the Club will be self-sufficient by then. The Investment Years will be over.
The advantage is that you have a say in how things are run, and you can prevent unscrupulous owners taking major decisions if you have over 25%, which C1872 will have in this deal. Special resolutions require 75% of the shareholding to vote for them, and all the big decisions are special resolutions.

Interesting.

[AJF]

28 minutes ago, G51 said:

I think part of the idea behind the three year timescale is that the Club will be self-sufficient by then. The Investment Years will be over.

The advantage is that you have a say in how things are run, and you can prevent unscrupulous owners taking major decisions if you have over 25%, which C1872 will have in this deal. Special resolutions require 75% of the shareholding to vote for them, and all the big decisions are special resolutions.

I’ve been on the fence about this news but I think this explanation is making me feel a bit more comfortable with it. I don’t really have a clue when it comes to this sort of stuff.

[G51]

Just now, AJF said:

I’ve been on the fence about this news but I think this explanation is making me feel a bit more comfortable with it. I don’t really have a clue when it comes to this sort of stuff.

If we had 25% of the shareholding, it can prevent owners from doing things like issuing more shares to themselves to dilute your own holding, moving or renaming the club, selling off major assets (so no one would be able to sell and leaseback Ibrox or Auchenhowie, like what EFL clubs are doing the whole time now).

Kings vision when he took over, and he said this in an interview that I can't find anymore, was that eventually 33% of the club would be owned by institutional investors (so pension funds etc), 33% by HNWI fans (Douglas Park, Three Bears etc) and 33% by fans organisations. Fair play to him, he's sticking to his word. If he does this, he'll go down as a legendary figure of the Club, if he isn't already.

[DMCs]

Fan ownership can also turn into a clusterf**k though. Just look at Barcelona to see what can happen.

I don't see how they will raise £13m.

[G51]

22 minutes ago, DMCs said:

Fan ownership can also turn into a clusterf**k though. Just look at Barcelona to see what can happen.

I don't see how they will raise £13m.

Barcelona are the perfect example of when it works well IMO. If the fans weren't able to get shot of the president, they'd have gotten rid of Messi instead.

It's a lot of money for sure, but this is a once in a lifetime opportunity. We have to take it.

[Romeo]

So that'll be £13000001 in total for king?

[DMCs]

7 minutes ago, G51 said:

Barcelona are the perfect example of when it works well IMO. If the fans weren't able to get shot of the president, they'd have gotten rid of Messi instead.

It's a lot of money for sure, but this is a once in a lifetime opportunity. We have to take it.

I mean more in terms of the huge debts they've amassed acting in such a short term manner. Which I'd say has a lot to do with the various election promises made by prospective presidents. 

[G51]

6 minutes ago, DMCs said:

I mean more in terms of the huge debts they've amassed acting in such a short term manner. Which I'd say has a lot to do with the various election promises made by prospective presidents. 

I'd argue that much of that was down to trying to keep an aging team together too long and the lack of infrastructure behind the manager(s).

But in any case, we're a long way from a setup like Barcelona even if this proposal comes to pass. This is primarily about protecting the future of the Club. No one would be able to stand for election on the basis of racking up debt for short-term gains, because we wouldn't have the power to do that.

[DMCs]

5 minutes ago, G51 said:

I'd argue that much of that was down to trying to keep an aging team together too long and the lack of infrastructure behind the manager(s).

But in any case, we're a long way from a setup like Barcelona even if this proposal comes to pass. This is primarily about protecting the future of the Club. No one would be able to stand for election on the basis of racking up debt for short-term gains, because we wouldn't have the power to do that.

I expect that they won't be able to purchase the full amount by the 3 years. Then what we'd see is that the process would be extended however if there are further debt for equity swaps then the amount they need to raise only increases.

[G51]

5 minutes ago, DMCs said:

I expect that they won't be able to purchase the full amount by the 3 years. Then what we'd see is that the process would be extended however if there are further debt for equity swaps then the amount they need to raise only increases.

King isn't funding the debt-for-equity swaps and hasn't for a while now I think. My suspicion is he's  gradually retiring - he stepped down from his executive position in MICROmega last year too.

So the amount to buy his shares wont change, but the amount to make 25% would if there were further swaps.

But lets see. It's a great opportunity - it's down to C1872 to make it happen now.

Edited December 1, 2020 by G51

[steelmen]

It’s great if the fans do get to own the club but there is no way they should agree to pay 20-23p per share (they are certainly not worth the 50p kings says they are worth)

They have been diluted so much since he bought them I’d be amazed if they were worth 5-10p a share.

The fans group are going to hand over £13m(?) and that’s going nowhere near the club. It’s back to being kings kids inheritance. If losing no money makes him a legendary figure then you have a different definition to me.

Wouldn’t worry too much about the fans never agreeing on anything. Motherwell are fan owned but we don’t all decide what’s going to happen with the club. We elect a board and that board has spots on the official board. We don’t get asked to make many decisions, in fact the last time we got a say was in the admit Sevco to the top flight as the club didn’t want to say no, so left it to the fans.

[alta-pete]

2 minutes ago, steelmen said:

It’s great if the fans do get to own the club but there is no way they should agree to pay 20-23p per share (they are certainly not worth the 50p kings says they are worth)

They have been diluted so much since he bought them I’d be amazed if they were worth 5-10p a share.

The fans group are going to hand over £13m(?) and that’s going nowhere near the club. It’s back to being kings kids inheritance. If losing no money makes him a legendary figure then you have a different definition to me.

Wouldn’t worry too much about the fans never agreeing on anything. Motherwell are fan owned but we don’t all decide what’s going to happen with the club. We elect a board and that board has spots on the official board. We don’t get asked to make many decisions, in fact the last time we got a say was in the admit Sevco to the top flight as the club didn’t want to say no, so left it to the fans.

I don’t know enough about it (sorry for all you fan club zealots) but I’m 100% behind this point of view. King was/is nothing but an opportunist. He’s used his weight of capital to gain control for very little cash but now expects to be bought out for actual cash.

I’d rather he sold his shareholding to existing Board members - who know the actual value - where they’d have a better idea as to where to take the club, rather than emotionally whip the fans up to spend £13m among however many ‘000  fans/mugs/customers/investors/you choose. He then disappears and the club is no better off. 

[G51]

9 minutes ago, steelmen said:

It’s great if the fans do get to own the club but there is no way they should agree to pay 20-23p per share (they are certainly not worth the 50p kings says they are worth)

They have been diluted so much since he bought them I’d be amazed if they were worth 5-10p a share.

The fans group are going to hand over £13m(?) and that’s going nowhere near the club. It’s back to being kings kids inheritance. If losing no money makes him a legendary figure then you have a different definition to me.

Wouldn’t worry too much about the fans never agreeing on anything. Motherwell are fan owned but we don’t all decide what’s going to happen with the club. We elect a board and that board has spots on the official board. We don’t get asked to make many decisions, in fact the last time we got a say was in the admit Sevco to the top flight as the club didn’t want to say no, so left it to the fans.

King's made a loss with Rangers and £13m won't even come close to covering what he's put in.

And ultimately, this is going to be the only chance we're going to get. We're not going to get an opportunity to invest enough in new shares at 20p to get to 25%, because a) the Club is no longer in need of that level of investment, and b) this would dilute the shareholdings so much we'd have to stick in much more than £13m to get there. We're going to have to buy from existing shareholders if we want to exert any kind of control.

Pricing the shares at 20p values the club at £65m. It's impossible to judge what they should be valued at because we're not publicly listed, but is £65m really that ridiculous a valuation?

[The_Kincardine]

Club 1872 should proxy their shares (inc. DK's holding) to we P&B Bears as we're the only group of Rangers fans who have, consistently, shown a sense of amity and have done so through many vicissitudes and are the most 'together' group in the Govansphere.

Anyone know a decent tailor to fit @bennett with his new blazer?

 

[steelmen]

King's made a loss with Rangers and £13m won't even come close to covering what he's put in.
And ultimately, this is going to be the only chance we're going to get. We're not going to get an opportunity to invest enough in new shares at 20p to get to 25%, because a) the Club is no longer in need of that level of investment, and b) this would dilute the shareholdings so much we'd have to stick in much more than £13m to get there. We're going to have to buy from existing shareholders if we want to exert any kind of control.
Pricing the shares at 20p values the club at £65m. It's impossible to judge what they should be valued at because we're not publicly listed, but is £65m really that ridiculous a valuation?

I would question point A. Going by the club accounts the club does need large levels of investment, in the short term at least and as the major shareholder the board will look to club 1872. Can they afford to chuck more money in after paying £13m?

I don’t think £65m is a ridiculous valuation, what I find ridiculous is someone expecting the value of what they paid for them 5(?) years ago when their have been many, many more released since then. Since the club isn’t on any exchange he is able to play on the loyalty of fans and demand what he wants for them.

I’m not sure what control you think your going to have, the fans will have very little say in what actually happens around the club. Voting on the board of the fans trust is pretty much all we get to do.

Are the fans universally behind club 1872? Can they raise the 13m?

[UAE1929]

12 hours ago, AJF said:

I don’t really have a clue when it comes to this sort of stuff.

Wouldn't worry too much, neither did many of your previous owners. 

[G51]

59 minutes ago, steelmen said:

 

I would question point A. Going by the club accounts the club does need large levels of investment, in the short term at least and as the major shareholder the board will look to club 1872. Can they afford to chuck more money in after paying £13m?

I don’t think £65m is a ridiculous valuation, what I find ridiculous is someone expecting the value of what they paid for them 5(?) years ago when their have been many, many more released since then. Since the club isn’t on any exchange he is able to play on the loyalty of fans and demand what he wants for them.

I’m not sure what control you think your going to have, the fans will have very little say in what actually happens around the club. Voting on the board of the fans trust is pretty much all we get to do.

Are the fans universally behind club 1872? Can they raise the 13m?

 

Other members of the board (Douglas Park and John Bennett) have committed to covering the shortfall for this year and next year. Club 1872 won’t be required to fund that, and by the time the three-year timescale of the deal is completed the club will no longer be requiring yearly investment.

The value of the club has also increased significantly since five years ago, which is worth remembering. I don’t have a problem with the price, it seems fair to value the club at £65m and Kings justification for it in the papers today seems fair to me. Club 1872 also needs to build a little momentum and become a bigger organisation if it’s to achieve this.

Im not expecting anything more than being able to nominate a director at the AGM. Our control will be negative control, I.e. preventing crooks from robbing us again. That’s the point of this.

Can they raise the 13m? That’s the... uh,£13m question. Only time can tell but I’m optimistic they can.