2426255 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 Just now, AJF said: And that’s where I think we have arrived at an impasse then if you believe both Beale and Gio were doing good jobs at the time of their departure. That's fine, I'm looking forward to seeing the cycle play itself out again this season. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinky67 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, AJF said: These arguments are dismantled the minute I ask you both if you feel Gio and Beale were doing good jobs and we were wrong to get rid of them. If you say yes then I’d say you’re lying to yourself. I thinks it’s difficult for any manager coming in to do a good job knowing full well he only has 2 transfer windows and maybe not even a full season in charge to show tangible improvement with an operating model that is flawed and fans who expect more than what the club seem to be capable of delivering. The managers are being made scapegoats, it’s Chelseaesque now Edited October 17, 2023 by Jinky67 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJF Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 18 minutes ago, Jinky67 said: I thinks it’s difficult for any manager coming in to do a good job knowing full well he only has 2 transfer windows and maybe not even a full season in charge to show tangible improvement with an operating model that is flawed and fans who expect more than what the club seem to be capable of delivering. The managers are being made scapegoats, it’s Chelseaesque now I think this viewpoint would carry more weight if you hadn’t mocked and lambasted the managers in question. Christ, even when I was using Beale’s stats from last season to point out how much we’d regressed this season you came out and effectively said it was misleading and he wasn’t doing good enough. Now all of a sudden the managers are scapegoats because it suits the narrative of the fans expecting too much I am often accused of being a happy clapper on here yet when I actually come out and criticise the managers I am expecting too much even though what I am saying essentially agrees with what you’ve said about the managers yourself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 30 minutes ago, Jinky67 said: I thinks it’s difficult for any manager coming in to do a good job knowing full well he only has 2 transfer windows and maybe not even a full season in charge to show tangible improvement with an operating model that is flawed and fans who expect more than what the club seem to be capable of delivering. The managers are being made scapegoats, it’s Chelseaesque now I think the fans expectations work against Rangers in the sense that their board factor it into their planning (customer is king and all that) resulting in more short termism such as sacking managers etc where what would be better is playing the longer game especially after stopping 10iar, obviously the rangers fanbase will not accept that and so this pattern will continue to play out for a while yet. Mark Warburton recently said in an interview that he was surprised to see that Rangers were expecting to win the league the year after they were promoted after seeing a banner in their first home game of the season (draw with Hamilton). While Rangers aren't where they were then it supports the point that Rangers fans don't know their place in the hierarchy which anyone objective would accept today is 2nd. Quote The worry for me was that immediately I knew the expectation was going to go through the roof. The expectation was roaring. The bigger picture for me was this overriding fear that the expectation had reached an unrealistic level and this was absolutely confirmed for the first game of the league season at home and I see going for 55 on the far side and I just knew that the expectation was not right. Mark Warburton https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgOrC6u7yag Case Closed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLIS Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 Anyone sane knows that anyone at Rangers or Celtic setting their objectives as 'finishing second and being competitive' is off their head. Neither club's fans will ever accept being second irrespective of current finances or state of play. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, ATLIS said: Anyone sane knows that anyone at Rangers or Celtic setting their objectives as 'finishing second and being competitive' is off their head. Neither club's fans will ever accept being second irrespective of current finances or state of play. That's my point, the fans are the problem. Any sensible business wouldn't make the same decisions Rangers make, it's the customer or fan expectations driving that. Edited October 17, 2023 by 2426255 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLIS Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 Just now, 2426255 said: That's my point, the fans are the problem. Any sensible business wouldn't make the same decisions Rangers make, it's the customer or fan expectations driving that. Honestly I don't think Celtic are doing things perfectly, they're absolutely catchable. It's just that Rangers aren't competent at this point to make the most of it. If they spent the money they did in the summer, but on quality players (not a Dessers, Lammers etc) then they close that gap a bit more. Celtic get by, by being less incompetent that Rangers are at this point - which isn't hard to do. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, ATLIS said: It's just that Rangers aren't competent at this point to make the most of it. If they spent the money they did in the summer, but on quality players (not a Dessers, Lammers etc) then they close that gap a bit more. Celtic get by, by being less incompetent that Rangers are at this point - which isn't hard to do. Yes, that's my point. Rangers aren't making good long terms decisions which is affecting their recruitment processes etc because of fan expectations which is in my view the root cause. Celtic don't have to be particularly good and are still streets ahead of Rangers. The expectations of the fanbase are in my view the single biggest thing holding Rangers back as they need to stop the short termism. Edited October 17, 2023 by 2426255 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJF Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, 2426255 said: Yes, that's my point. Rangers aren't making good long terms decisions which is affecting their recruitment processes etc because of fan expectations which is in my view the root cause. Celtic don't have to be particularly good and are still streets ahead of Rangers. How on earth did fan expectations influence the signing of Dessers, as an example? I’d love to hear this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 Just now, AJF said: How on earth did fan expectations influence the signing of Dessers, as an example? I’d love to hear this. It's not about those individual elements, it's the impact of constant managerial churn driven by expectations. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludo*1 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 I thought Gio was doing fine and absolutely excellent in Europe. He had a bit of a wobble, the fans turned and he couldn't cope. Beale was just shite throughout and the signings were abysmal. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLIS Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, 2426255 said: Yes, that's my point. Rangers aren't making good long terms decisions which is affecting their recruitment processes etc because of fan expectations which is in my view the root cause. Celtic don't have to be particularly good and are still streets ahead of Rangers. The expectations of the fanbase are in my view the single biggest thing holding Rangers back as they need to stop the short termism. I'd be interested to know what Rangers' recruitment strategy actually is. For a while it was signing English Championship castoffs, British players who understand 'tradition and institution' - then they pivoted to a more European strategy and seemed a bit more diverse. It seemed all over the place. I don't think the expectations of the fanbase are holding the club back, expecting to win the league is surely a normal thing for Celtic and Rangers. A lot can change in one window, you just need to get it right and you probably tip the scales. The one thing that maybe holds them back is the fans turning too quickly, but there's a fine line between unsalvageable mess and a blip - I don't think many actually know that difference. Edited October 17, 2023 by ATLIS 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJF Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, 2426255 said: It's not about those individual elements, it's the impact of constant managerial churn driven by expectations. But what has managerial churn got to do with a manager signing a player? Beale had relatively little pressure on him during the summer in comparison to when he left. So how did that expectation end up in us signing Dessers? Edited October 17, 2023 by AJF 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooooft. Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 See, people think it’s a piss take but it’s not. For a club formed in 2012 they have done exceptionally well actually. That is just a simple fact. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, AJF said: But what has managerial churn got to do with a manager signing a player? Beale has relatively little pressure on him during the summer in comparison to when he left. So how did that expectation end up in us signing Dessers? He was doing the recruitment job single handedly was he not? He was required to turnover the squad in time to compete for qualification for the Champions league. That doesn't sound like a good long term strategy to me. The board need to think longer term. Accept some short term pain. They can't do that though as the fans won't accept that so they have to pursue these paths. Edited October 17, 2023 by 2426255 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJF Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, 2426255 said: He was doing the recruitment job single handedly was he not? He was required to turnover the squad in time to compete for qualification for the Champions league. That doesn't sound like a good long term strategy to me. The board need to think longer term. Accept some short term pain. But again, that’s also a failing of the manager. I think it’s known that I feel the club should’ve appointed a director of football given’s Beale’s lack of experience, but these are players he identified. The decision not to appoint a director of football and the decision for Beale to sign the players he did were in no way influenced by fan expectation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 (edited) Rangers are making bad decisions because they don't have the option of taking the longer view. That's caused by fan expectations. They can't accept a year where they will not get success, but will help them in the longer term - but that's what they really need. They are just stumbling from manager to manager, but it's not addressing the root cause. It's a poorly run club and that needs to change, but they never have the opportunity to make the necessary changes. Edited October 17, 2023 by 2426255 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJF Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 1 minute ago, 2426255 said: Rangers are making bad decisions because they don't have the option of taking the longer view. That's caused by fan expectations. They can't accept a year where they will not get success, but will help them in the longer term - but that's what they really need. They are just stumbling from manager to manager, but it's not addressing the root cause. Please tell me how fan expectation had any bearing on whether Rangers appointed a director of football. You said yourself that was a failing by Rangers in not supporting Beale with recruitment and the squad turnaround. I just totally disagree the decision not to appoint a DoF is at all influenced by the fans. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinky67 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 52 minutes ago, AJF said: I think this viewpoint would carry more weight if you hadn’t mocked and lambasted the managers in question. Christ, even when I was using Beale’s stats from last season to point out how much we’d regressed this season you came out and effectively said it was misleading and he wasn’t doing good enough. Now all of a sudden the managers are scapegoats because it suits the narrative of the fans expecting too much I am often accused of being a happy clapper on here yet when I actually come out and criticise the managers I am expecting too much even though what I am saying essentially agrees with what you’ve said about the managers yourself. We mock and put the boot in at every opportunity as that’s part of the rivalry and will continue to do so with this guy when the opportunity appears and he’s punted next season. FFS you dobbers mocked Ange at every possibly opportunity and now he’s sitting top of the EPL with back to back managers of the month. It’s just the way of things. You don’t have to agree with me, I’m happy enough just watching the shit show and happily clapping 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, AJF said: Please tell me how fan expectation had any bearing on whether Rangers appointed a director of football. You said yourself that was a failing by Rangers in not supporting Beale with recruitment and the squad turnaround. I just totally disagree the decision not to appoint a DoF is at all influenced by the fans. My point is that everything thing at Rangers is done at pace. Even if they appoint a DoF he will have to hit the ground running or he'll be under pressure. The lack of time caused by unhappy Buns causes it all to be rushed. The Rangers board are making decisions under a time pressure and it's affecting the quality of their decisions as shown by giving Beale the freedom to recruit single handedly. Edited October 17, 2023 by 2426255 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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