AJF Posted December 8, 2022 Share Posted December 8, 2022 (edited) 24 minutes ago, gannonball said: Conspiracies aside wtf has it to do With The board? Some shoehorning there by moonhowler. Yes but the rebuild was funded by years and years of player sales before that. For example in the time you have had Morelos we bought and sold Dembele, then Edouard and now have been able to buy 2 more decent strikers for less than what we paid for Eddie in the first place. You can moan about spending differences but the reality is we were able to spend that cash due to being savvy and selling at the right time. You could have funded your own rebuild selling Morelos a season or two ago but decided to keep him and now goosed, same goes for Kent. If we let Dembele, Eddie Ajer etc run down their contract we would be in much the same position as you. We earned our spending power through developing and selling our better players and finding others in the time that Rangers* tried to keep them. Neither club is able to do that long term due to the wages elsewhere, it also isn’t sustainable for either club to have a transfer deficit just about every season. Why do you keep ignoring the fact that we sold Patterson, Bassey and Aribo for over €40m? How much would we have needed to bring in for you to consider it enough for a rebuild? It is not a case of moaning, it is a case of accepting that we are financially way behind Celtic, something that Celtic fans don't want to accept. The fact is we still spent over €14m in the summer, which is a hell of a lot of money for a Scottish side. I'm just saying that it is a pittance in comparison to what Celtic have spent. Edited December 8, 2022 by AJF 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gannonball Posted December 8, 2022 Share Posted December 8, 2022 (edited) 26 minutes ago, AJF said: Why do you keep ignoring the fact that we sold Patterson, Bassey and Aribo for over €40m? How much would we have needed to bring in for you to consider it enough for a rebuild? The fact is we still spent over €14m in the summer, which is a hell of a lot of money for a Scottish side. I'm just saying that it is a pittance in comparison to what Celtic have spent. Im not ignoring it but thats all come in the past year, there has been over 100 million in losses in the past decade though and the cash you mentioned went back to the investors absorbing it mainly. Your moaning about this gap is mainly due to mismanagement of your club rather than us having this pot of gold. We just happened to have good player trading model which helped fund our our overhaul and increase our wage budget. Admittedly we are the bigger club though with slightly larger revenue streams when you take away competition money etc so there is that too. ETA - We seem to have this discussion regarding player sales every few months so think we are covering old ground here tbh. Edited December 8, 2022 by gannonball 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJF Posted December 8, 2022 Share Posted December 8, 2022 17 minutes ago, gannonball said: Im not ignoring it but thats all come in the past year, there has been over 100 million in losses in the past decade though and the cash you mentioned went back to the investors absorbing it mainly. Your moaning about this gap is mainly due to mismanagement of your club rather than us having this pot of gold. We just happened to have good player trading model which helped fund our our overhaul and increase our wage budget. Admittedly we are the bigger club though with slightly larger revenue streams when you take away competition money etc so there is that too. ETA - We seem to have this discussion regarding player sales every few months so think we are covering old ground here tbh. Aye, let's call it a day as I don't think we are going to ever agree 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insaintee Posted December 8, 2022 Share Posted December 8, 2022 33 minutes ago, AJF said: Aye, let's call it a day as I don't think we are going to ever agree Post of the year from AJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJF Posted December 8, 2022 Share Posted December 8, 2022 14 minutes ago, Insaintee said: Post of the year from AJ If you have no interest in me posting about Rangers in the Rangers thread, then you are under no obligation to read it. Just ignore and move on rather than be condescending. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insaintee Posted December 8, 2022 Share Posted December 8, 2022 1 hour ago, AJF said: If you have no interest in me posting about Rangers in the Rangers thread, then you are under no obligation to read it. Just ignore and move on rather than be condescending. Feeling a bit raw this morning? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stressball Posted December 8, 2022 Share Posted December 8, 2022 (edited) 16 hours ago, AJF said: I was giving the transfer spend since the squad overhaul started under Postecoglou that @gannonballmentioned which highlights the vastly differing budgets of the two teams during that period. Being profitable or not doesn’t change or alter the fact that Celtic are able to, and have, outspent us to a degree that we cannot keep up with. Makes a change since the tenner for every fiver days. Edited December 8, 2022 by stressball 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clown Job Posted December 8, 2022 Share Posted December 8, 2022 (edited) Rangers liquidators finally settle tax case as eye-watering EBT figure shows club could never have been saved Rangers, under former owner David Murray, were propelled headlong towards liquidation when HMRC caught on to their misuse of an Employee Benefits Trust scheme. EBTs, as they are known, were utilised from 2001 to 2011 to avoid paying tax and national insurance on player and staff salaries funnelled through them Now, BDO, have finally reached agreement with HMRC on the tax denied to the Treasury coffers by Rangers. First, and principally, during the Murray era, and then after Craig Whyte bought the club from the Edinbugh-based businessman for a £1 in May 2011 and proceeded to withhold tax. A sale rushed through because Murray was then coming under severe pressure from Lloyds Bank as his empire had racked up a mountainous debt that the bank largely was on the hook for. BDO have now reached a “negotiated resolution” that has resulted in a “composite settlement” of £56m for the whole HMRC claim. Or, if you prefer, almost 87% of what the tax authority sought to have lodged This conclusion to an interminable saga is significant since there were some bizarre moves three years ago to promote the notion that gross miscalculation by HMRC over EBTs had prevented Murray attracting a buyer beyond the dubious turnaround specialist Whyte to spare the old Rangers from liquidation. Yet, even without Whyte’s arrival on the scene and his subsequent mismanagement, Rangers would still have been left with a near £50m bill to HMRC. A liability they could never have satisfied and, as this demand hadn’t crystallised in 2011, never found an alternative buyer to step forward back then. Especially when there was an additional £18m bank debt Lloyds demanded be repaid before sanctioning any sale of the Ibrox club. It doesn’t affect the finances of the current Rangers – under a different company structure – that creditors are in line to receive just over 14p in the pound over the car crash that the club’s finances became before they hit the wall. But these absolutes should surely end any further misguided attempts to present a scenario in which Rangers could have avoided liquidation and the need, essentially, to reform in 2012. Edit: Yet you’ll still have the brass next to claim the trophies and argue “it’s the same club” Edited December 8, 2022 by Clown Job 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinky67 Posted December 8, 2022 Share Posted December 8, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, AJF said: Why do you keep ignoring the fact that we sold Patterson, Bassey and Aribo for over €40m? How much would we have needed to bring in for you to consider it enough for a rebuild? It is not a case of moaning, it is a case of accepting that we are financially way behind Celtic, something that Celtic fans don't want to accept. The fact is we still spent over €14m in the summer, which is a hell of a lot of money for a Scottish side. I'm just saying that it is a pittance in comparison to what Celtic have spent. What it seems to be is a thinly veiled excuse to justify underperformance and poor financial management. You are club capable of turnover figures close if not similar to what we do. What you don’t seem capable of is making good decisions when to sell players at the right time which is the one of the big reasons Celtic can outspend you. And I’m happy to accept you are financially behind us but again that is purely down not to an inability to generate revenue but an inability to manage it wisely. Edited December 8, 2022 by Jinky67 -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJF Posted December 8, 2022 Share Posted December 8, 2022 3 hours ago, Jinky67 said: And I’m happy to accept you are financially behind us but again that is purely down not to an inability to generate revenue but an inability to manage it wisely. Aye? Would you care to provide me with the Rangers vs Celtic turnover comparison for the last 2/5/10 years then? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sortmeout Posted December 8, 2022 Share Posted December 8, 2022 So much discussion over a holding companies financial results. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinky67 Posted December 8, 2022 Share Posted December 8, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, AJF said: Aye? Would you care to provide me with the Rangers vs Celtic turnover comparison for the last 2/5/10 years then? Why would I need to do that? You generated £86m of revenue last season. That alone evidences you are capable of it, selling your players at the right time and not letting them go at the end of contracts for f**k all when you could have recouped £20-£30 million combined for Kent & Morelos and spending ridiculous loan fees on the likes of Diallo and Ramsey evidences the dumbfuckery of managing it wisely. It seems you want to throw yourself somewhat of a pity party though so crack the f**k on mate Edited December 9, 2022 by Jinky67 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theroadlesstravelled Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 I’d imagine the income from the Europa League, Champions League and selling players would be significant for any club. Over £100 million brought in the last 7 or 8 months? Where did the money go? If you tell me Mike Ashley is still getting it I won’t need anything for Christmas. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJF Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 7 hours ago, Jinky67 said: Why would I need to do that? You generated £86m of revenue last season. That alone evidences you are capable of it, selling your players at the right time and not letting them go at the end of contracts for f**k all when you could have recouped £20-£30 million combined for Kent & Morelos and spending ridiculous loan fees on the likes of Diallo and Ramsey evidences the dumbfuckery of managing it wisely. It seems you want to throw yourself somewhat of a pity party though so crack the f**k on mate We made record revenue last season and it took reaching the Europa League final to do it and it was still less than what Celtic brought in. ”you are capable of it” drastically oversimplifies the matter. I’ve never once argued against the point that Kent or Morelos could’ve been cashed in earlier, but that also ignore that we sold more than £40m of talent in the last 12 months so it’s hardly as if we haven’t been selling well in that period. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinky67 Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 (edited) 31 minutes ago, AJF said: We made record revenue last season and it took reaching the Europa League final to do it and it was still less than what Celtic brought in. ”you are capable of it” drastically oversimplifies the matter. I’ve never once argued against the point that Kent or Morelos could’ve been cashed in earlier, but that also ignore that we sold more than £40m of talent in the last 12 months so it’s hardly as if we haven’t been selling well in that period. That’s because it is very simple. The £86m of revenue generated doesn’t include £40m of sold talent so it seems you are deliberately trying to skew the numbers a little….you didn’t happen to be the pre 2012 accountant did you? Your only significant sale included in that number was Paterson whereas Celtic did actually sell more than £40m worth of talent our highest ever season for transfer fees recouped I believe. You mentioned context a couple of times so probably would help if you applied some however as I said this feels to me a pre-emptive stance you are taking to justify underperformance, it’s an interesting take from a fan of the supposedly biggest club in Scotland to suggest they really aren’t that big anymore compared to Celtic. Don’t be mistaken I’m pretty happy that we are able to do what we do while the bean counters at Ibrox scratch their heads. It’s all a bit karmatic Edited December 9, 2022 by Jinky67 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJF Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Jinky67 said: That’s because it is very simple. The £86m of revenue generated doesn’t include £40m of sold talent so it seems you are deliberately trying to skew the numbers a little….you didn’t happen to be the pre 2012 accountant did you? Your only significant sale included in that number was Paterson whereas Celtic did actually sell more than £40m worth of talent our highest ever season for transfer fees recouped I believe. You mentioned context a couple of times so probably would help if you applied some however as I said this feels to me a pre-emptive stance you are taking to justify underperformance, it’s an interesting take from a fan of the supposedly biggest club in Scotland to suggest they really aren’t that big anymore compared to Celtic. I never said the £40m was included in last years turnover, I said the Europa league run was, hence why it was included in its own paragraph. I mentioned that we had sold £40m worth of talent in response to the (valid) criticisms of not cashing in on Morelos and Kent to show that we still done well in the transfer market despite this during the last 12 months. So, I’m not trying to skew anything, they were separate points that you have lumped together. It’s not a pre-emptive stance on anything, I have been highly critical of our performances this season and expect us to be doing a lot better. It’s why I was in favour of Gio getting sacked, unless you just want to ignore all that. This started after a Celtic fan insinuated that there wasn’t much of a financial disparity between the two clubs which I’ve proven to be incorrect. It is simply an (unfortunate for us) fact. Edited December 9, 2022 by AJF 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insaintee Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 3 hours ago, AJF said: I never said the £40m was included in last years turnover, I said the Europa league run was, hence why it was included in its own paragraph. I mentioned that we had sold £40m worth of talent in response to the (valid) criticisms of not cashing in on Morelos and Kent to show that we still done well in the transfer market despite this during the last 12 months. So, I’m not trying to skew anything, they were separate points that you have lumped together. It’s not a pre-emptive stance on anything, I have been highly critical of our performances this season and expect us to be doing a lot better. It’s why I was in favour of Gio getting sacked, unless you just want to ignore all that. This started after a Celtic fan insinuated that there wasn’t much of a financial disparity between the two clubs which I’ve proven to be incorrect. It is simply an (unfortunate for us) fact. I thought you were going to leave this 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insaintee Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 On 06/12/2022 at 11:52, AJF said: Aye, he'd be a squad player. If everyone was fit, Goldson and Davies would be our starting CB pairings. Then you'd imagine he'd be behind Souttar in the pecking order, maybe even Helander as well based on his ability when he is injury free. Saw an article saying "celtic not interested in Porteous," and in a way it summed up where the two teams are. Would he get a sniff at first team with Celtic? Nope. At Rangers yes (all be it only a squad player). I have to say some of the other names linked are not that exciting almost all over or about 30. Replacements for Davis and Arfield. Hardly building a future. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinky67 Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, AJF said: I never said the £40m was included in last years turnover, I said the Europa league run was, hence why it was included in its own paragraph. I mentioned that we had sold £40m worth of talent in response to the (valid) criticisms of not cashing in on Morelos and Kent to show that we still done well in the transfer market despite this during the last 12 months. So, I’m not trying to skew anything, they were separate points that you have lumped together. It’s not a pre-emptive stance on anything, I have been highly critical of our performances this season and expect us to be doing a lot better. It’s why I was in favour of Gio getting sacked, unless you just want to ignore all that. This started after a Celtic fan insinuated that there wasn’t much of a financial disparity between the two clubs which I’ve proven to be incorrect. It is simply an (unfortunate for us) fact. And like I said before what you should be questioning is to why that is. You all claim to be a global club with a bigger fan base, yes you may not draw as much from match day or season ticket revenue however there is no reason why Rangers shouldn’t be able to emulate what Celtic do commercially or in terms of being able to buy low, sell big, no reason whatsoever. The difference is those in charge of your club were more than willing to sell off revenue streams to the likes of Mike Ashley, hold onto players when it was the right time to sell in an attempt to just stop Celtic doing 10iar which you accomplished and are now paying for it as those who footed the bill want their returns and you find yourself with players you will likely make no return on and with no equity to replace them with players of similar or better quality and will then again have to resort to borrowing as the transfer fees recouped from the likes of Bassey will just plug the gap in European revenue lost between last season and this season. You guys should be asking hard questions of your board but there seems to be some sort of acceptance that you are now languishing behind and there is nothing you can do Financial disparity , I imagine most non Celtic and Rangers fans are laughing their heads off at hearing that come from a Rangers fan and so they should tbf Edited December 9, 2022 by Jinky67 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJF Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 34 minutes ago, Insaintee said: Saw an article saying "celtic not interested in Porteous," and in a way it summed up where the two teams are. Would he get a sniff at first team with Celtic? Nope. At Rangers yes (all be it only a squad player). I have to say some of the other names linked are not that exciting almost all over or about 30. Replacements for Davis and Arfield. Hardly building a future. Apparently we have distanced ourselves from Porteous as well so it doesn't seem likely he will be on his way to us which is ideal as like you said before, he wouldn't be an upgrade on what we already have. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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