"Scotland Has Too Many Clubs" - Ann Budge

[CathcartSkins]

If we have too many clubs, why are we adding U20's into the cup competitions and suggesting their inclusion in the lower leagues? Each community has every right to start and have their own club should they wish; I find it hard to accept that clubs attracting less than, say 1,500 fans each week are financially holding back Scottish football.

Edited August 8, 2016 by CathcartSkins

[Lexy Grant]

If you are going to go about "fixing" Scottish football then you really need to get off to go a good start. Diving in head first using language which will immediately get everyone's back up is just going to mean you will end up getting pilloried and your idea rubbish.

Change fixing to "making Scottish football better".

Don't talk about too many clubs, talk about league reconstruction from the top to the bottom and vica versa. There is a way to get what she is wanting, from reading these thread people enjoy local games but still like the odd far travelled day out. I would love to see a top two league set up with 32 teams, 16 and 16. Below that regional leagues. But the regional leagues need to involve everyone. Seniors and juniors language needs binned. Professional, semi professional and amateur is what we need with a pyramid from bottom to top. It will never happen and for that I blame the juniors. Only the SFA can fix it but they don't have the balls.

Regional leagues will never be drawn up by straight lines. That's just common sense. I'd keep a northern and southern as the split below the 2nd national league. Below that you could split into 3, probably 4 but maybe even 5 different areas, below that you go as local as you want.

No one is killing off teams. Just giving them a level to play at. A level where they can aim as high as they can but a safety net where failure doesn't mean death.

If clubs die, it's because they have been run poorly and over spent money they didn't have. That can happen at any level whether you are Rangers, Gretna, Ballingry or Tarff Rovers.

[Dr Koop]

On August 7, 2016 at 18:01, doulikefish said:

Aye lets start with clubs that cant control there finances

Yep, out the door with clubs that have been in financial schtook for the past umm, 19 years. That's Dundee threefold, Airdrie(onians), Livingston, Dunfermline, Hearts and that b*****d abomination south of the Clyde that can't decide if it is or isn't Rangers.

That about right, missus?

[Clayhole Blue]

Scottish football has too many accountants - most of whom still manage to push full-time clubs into administration!

Edited August 8, 2016 by Clayhole Blue

[ICTChris]

There are so many ideas that will never die in Scottish football.

- Too many clubs

- Summer football

- Colt teams in the lower leagues

Utter fucking pish every one.  The next administrator who floats one of these ideas should get a severe kick in the bollocks.

[Liviguy]

Further evidence of why I wanted Hearts to go bust.

[Sergeant Wilson]

1 hour ago, Liviguy said:

Further evidence of why I wanted Hearts to go bust.

That's fucking rich coming from a Livingston supporter. 

[theoriginalhedge]

22 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Malta is only slightly bigger than Clackmannanshire with less than a tenth of Scotland's population, so that isn't a sensible parallel. Not sure why people see having twenty fewer clubs in the national divisions as meaning clubs would no longer exist. Most of Scotland's 950 or so Saturday afternoon teams already play outside the SPFL. Bo'ness United vs Alloa makes more sense than Stranraer vs Alloa from a logistical standpoint when part-time players are involved and you would still get a decent sized crowd along to watch it. Regional divisions at the top part-time level would not be the end of the world for the clubs involved.

Thank you for that Ms Budge. 

[Tulloch Gorum]

1 hour ago, Brechin171974 said:

Doubt she's nay getting her  Nat King !!!  Why should well disciplined run teams who ve been in existence for 100 years plus , be cast aside to make competition easier for Jambos ..... More need to concentrate on weeding cheat s outta her team ..... Now piss off n wash the dishes 

Yes, it's a terrible idea - but why bring idiot sexism into it?

[topcat(The most tip top)]

To answer a couple of the above. The intention would be to limit the "professional" game to the top 2 divisions. Reduce the share of revenue even further and stop any lower division reps from having influence. SPL 2 as it was previously known.

That's how I read it

It's almost as if the BBC distorted the quote in the headline to make the story more confrontational than it actually is

We've currently got 42 teams in 4 divisions in our top league. We previously had 12 teams in one division for several years

I'm not suggesting that it's self evident but the idea that somewhere in between those positions might be more appropriate than is hardly outlandish.

On the whole I'd personally rather we gave the current structure a chance to succeed or fail rather than do anything dramatic now.

[1320Lichtie]

Doubt she's nay getting her  Nat King !!!  Why should well disciplined run teams who ve been in existence for 100 years plus , be cast aside to make competition easier for Jambos ..... More need to concentrate on weeding cheat s outta her team ..... Now piss off n wash the dishes 

Now Lex you're justified in having a go at this.

[stuartcraig]

21 hours ago, Dr Koop said:

Yep, out the door with clubs that have been in financial schtook for the past umm, 19 years. That's Dundee threefold, Airdrie(onians), Livingston, Dunfermline, Hearts and that b*****d abomination south of the Clyde that can't decide if it is or isn't Rangers.

That about right, missus?

Strictly speaking, you'd need to remove Airdrie from that list since the original Airdrieonians went bust.  We're the rebranded Clydebank, as football forums wits like to continually remind us.

[Dr Koop]

I'm sure you're taking it with a large pinch of salt, Stuart. Like just about everyone on this thread, I get fed up with 'too many clubs' from the likes of the Budgie woman when it's all about more of a shitty pot for clubs that have utterly screwed the pooch over the years - Dundee being a prime example - and no reward for the teams that live with their means and rarely need the big money tit.

[Diamonds are Forever]

To 'fix' Scottish football surely first the 'problem' needs to be identified? I don't really see what problem needs fixed in the first place. Certainly not a problem that needs such a drastic solution. Firstly there is the idea that we need to improve the Scottish national team. That shouldn't even be a consideration, and even if it was there is no evidence from any country that a particular league set-up will benefit the national team, the league set-up is the tip of the iceberg when it comes to developing players. Attendance sometimes gets mentioned as a problem, as has been covered our attendance as a whole are excellent, and removing teams would not result in those fans going along to other bigger clubs. They would either be lost to the game or more likely start 'supporting' an English or Spanish side from in front of a TV. So we are left with the perpetual 'problem' which is that clubs want more money. Clubs will always spend what they have and a bit more no matter how much they are getting. As we saw during the SPL years, getting more money will just mean inflated wages, youth pathways at clubs being log jammed with third rate imports and clubs getting into even more debt. Hearts are the best (or worst) example of what happens when you make the top level a closed shop in pursuit of money.

It's no surprise that Budge has these views, she's a successful business women and therefore is programmed to think that generating more money is the be all and end all. It's not. Generating more money should be a natural by-product of having a thriving, competitive league set-up at all levels. Not cutting out half the teams and their fans to try and get some artificial boom in finances.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Diamonds are Forever

[stuartcraig]

44 minutes ago, Dr Koop said:

I'm sure you're taking it with a large pinch of salt, Stuart. Like just about everyone on this thread, I get fed up with 'too many clubs' from the likes of the Budgie woman when it's all about more of a shitty pot for clubs that have utterly screwed the pooch over the years - Dundee being a prime example - and no reward for the teams that live with their means and rarely need the big money tit.

I am.

I'm reasonably convinced she's just looking to create a league structure which will allow the "big" U20 teams get more competitive gametime.

It's incredibly sad that some in Scottish football reduce the contribution that many teams have made over the past 100+ years to only being worthy of acting as fodder for their colt teams.

[trainspotter]

22 hours ago, ICTChris said:

 The next administrator who floats one of these ideas should get a severe kick in the bollocks.

Just as well you specified it should be the next one. It's hardly a workable sanction under current circumstances.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Strictly speaking, you'd need to remove Airdrie from that list since the original Airdrieonians went bust.  We're the rebranded Clydebank, as football forums wits like to continually remind us.

Strictly speaking being Clydebank isn't much of a defence against suggestions of having been in financial Schtuck

[topcat(The most tip top)]

To 'fix' Scottish football surely first the 'problem' needs to be identified? I don't really see what problem needs fixed in the first place. Certainly not a problem that needs such a drastic solution. Firstly there is the idea that we need to improve the Scottish national team. That shouldn't even be a consideration, and even if it was there is no evidence from any country that a particular league set-up will benefit the national team, the league set-up is the tip of the iceberg when it comes to developing players. Attendance sometimes gets mentioned as a problem, as has been covered our attendance as a whole are excellent, and removing teams would not result in those fans going along to other bigger clubs. They would either be lost to the game or more likely start 'supporting' an English or Spanish side from in front of a TV. So we are left with the perpetual 'problem' which is that clubs want more money. Clubs will always spend what they have and a bit more no matter how much they are getting. As we saw during the SPL years, getting more money will just mean inflated wages, youth pathways at clubs being log jammed with third rate imports and clubs getting into even more debt. Hearts are the best (or worst) example of what happens when you make the top level a closed shop in pursuit of money.

It's no surprise that Budge has these views, she's a successful business women and therefore is programmed to think that generating more money is the be all and end all. It's not. Generating more money should be a natural by-product of having a thriving, competitive league set-up at all levels. Not cutting out half the teams and their fans to try and get some artificial boom in finances.

To be fair it's the bottom half of the league that's historically been keener on closed shops

[Ross.]

I think there may be good arguments for regionalisation below the second league, but simply stating "There are too many clubs" is a tad empty.

Does she state anywhere what the right number of clubs is?

[Dr Koop]

"As long as it includes Hearts - and, one assumes Hibs, both the Glasgow Unwashed, the Dundee Administration Deadbeats and the Terrurz and maybe two more - perhaps a nod to Lanarkshire, Ayrshire or 'the north east'."