moncaidh ruadh Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 I think it's probably best to accept that leave won the vote, it was a democratic vote, so we should accept the result and get on with it. I voted Yes and I voted Remain. I was on the losing side of both referendums. Above all else I am a democrat so I respect the result. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRob72 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 As someone whose paternal Grandfather was a former member of the Black Lodge in Northern Ireland and whose upbringing was staunchly staunch, I don't summarily dismiss anything or anyone lightly; at one point in time I was one of those 'others'. Age however sometimes brings maturity and wisdom, and I've (very) long since abandoned any association with the Unionist cause - quite the polar opposite in fact. As a result I tend to have a dim view of those on every side who cling, religiously in too many cases, to the dismal practices and beliefs of the past, sugar-coating them in weasel words like 'heritage' and 'tradition'. Aye, right.Agreed, but also that nationhood and citizenship can sit comfortably with heritage and tradition in the lives of most moderates, outwith religious dogma. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 3 minutes ago, moncaidh ruadh said: I think it's probably best to accept that leave won the vote, it was a democratic vote, so we should accept the result and get on with it. I voted Yes and I voted Remain. I was on the losing side of both referendums. Above all else I am a democrat so I respect the result. For evermore, and if new information makes clear it was an awful decision? No other Democratic votes are binding in perpetuity, and in changing circumstances. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTG Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 1 hour ago, RedRob72 said: Think we’re just going round in circles here. The agreement being that there is an extended transition period to resolve the border issue, if that needs to include the fixed time-line of an extension beyond March 2019 then fine. We can continue to work on that with our EU counterparts whilst we attempt to get everything else in place. It doesn’t make any sense whatsoever to say that because one issue appears to be insurmountable at present that we just drop everything else. Like you, I didn’t want this, but without offering some space and flexibility, both sides are only going to exacerbate the frustrations and discomfort of this untidy break up. How? How does anyone resolve this? Britain refuses to countenance freedom of movement. Britain refuses to stay in the customs union. Britain needs to instigate new trade deals. New trade deals will require borders. The EU has said since day 1 that they will not compromise on their core red lines. The EU didn't vote for Brexit. If there is no border in Ireland, why have one anywhere? If it isn't acceptable at Dover, it's not acceptable anywhere else. You saying we should boot this on until a solution is found is what is driving remain and leave people nuts. We all know there isn't a solution. We all know that one of the hard choices needs to be made. The only question is, which one will this government make? Kicking the can may - very doubtful - produce a Labour govt. They are more likely to choose customs union and no border. But that's the only way. As I said earlier - there is no third choice and there never will be. If there were, 30 months of thinking about it would have identified it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moncaidh ruadh Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 1 minute ago, welshbairn said: For evermore, and if new information makes clear it was an awful decision? No other Democratic votes are binding in perpetuity, and in changing circumstances. No not for evermore. That would be as wrong as not accepting democratic votes. In my mind people who do not respect the results of fair free democratic elections are fascists. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 4 minutes ago, welshbairn said: For evermore, and if new information makes clear it was an awful decision? No other Democratic votes are binding in perpetuity, and in changing circumstances. Not forever more. But it must implemented. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 2 minutes ago, moncaidh ruadh said: No not for evermore. That would be as wrong as not accepting democratic votes. In my mind people who do not respect the results of fair free democratic elections are fascists. What's your cut-off, then? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 1 minute ago, moncaidh ruadh said: No not for evermore. That would be as wrong as not accepting democratic votes. In my mind people who do not respect the results of fair free democratic elections are fascists. I'm not sure how fair it was when Farage and co promised we could stay in the single market and we'd get multiple billions to spend on the NHS. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Gaines Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 Fair They used bigotry and illegal means to help win the referendum. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 3 minutes ago, Detournement said: Not forever more. But it must implemented. What's undemocratic about having another referendum when the actual choices become clear? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BawWatchin Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 13 minutes ago, moncaidh ruadh said: I voted Yes and I voted Remain. I was on the losing side of both referendums. Above all else I am a democrat so I respect the result. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moncaidh ruadh Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 4 minutes ago, Gaz said: What's your cut-off, then? The EU referendum result should be implemented. If we vote to re join at a later date that would be good. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moncaidh ruadh Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 5 minutes ago, welshbairn said: I'm not sure how fair it was when Farage and co promised we could stay in the single market and we'd get multiple billions to spend on the NHS. Good point. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moncaidh ruadh Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 4 minutes ago, Principal Flutie said: Fair They used bigotry and illegal means to help win the referendum. Which referendum? Which side? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paco Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 You could make a case of the UK electorate being as ‘entitled’ to another referendum as the Scottish people on independence - both landscapes have changed beyond all recognition pre-referendum. Almost nobody voted even for something as extreme as Chequers. Even Nigel fucking Farage was saying we could be like Norway. That there’s no backing away from the mess is the anti-democratic scenario, not having another vote. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moncaidh ruadh Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 3 minutes ago, BawWatchin said: If Yes had won in 2014 we would have expected the result to have been implemented. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moncaidh ruadh Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 1 minute ago, Paco said: You could make a case of the UK electorate being as ‘entitled’ to another referendum as the Scottish people on independence - both landscapes have changed beyond all recognition pre-referendum. Almost nobody voted even for something as extreme as Chequers. Even Nigel fucking Farage was saying we could be like Norway. That there’s no backing away from the mess is the anti-democratic scenario, not having another vote. You are clutching at straws my friend. Democracy is not perfect but what is the alternative? Anarchy? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 8 minutes ago, moncaidh ruadh said: The EU referendum result should be implemented. If we vote to re join at a later date that would be good. Any chance of answering the question? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 As someone whose paternal Grandfather was a former member of the Black Lodge in Northern Ireland and whose upbringing was staunchly staunch, I don't summarily dismiss anything or anyone lightly; at one point in time I was one of those 'others'. Age however sometimes brings maturity and wisdom, and I've (very) long since abandoned any association with the Unionist cause - quite the polar opposite in fact. As a result I tend to have a dim view of those on every side who cling, religiously in too many cases, to the dismal practices and beliefs of the past, sugar-coating them in weasel words like 'heritage' and 'tradition'. Aye, right.For those of us less familiar with these matters what’s the “Black Lodge”? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 48 minutes ago, Bandstand said: It might be the case that many folk in the U.K. would accept a hard border as a price worth paying but the EU will back Ireland and there will be no deal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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