Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[HTG]

14 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

It would be helpful if Momentum, who have done so much to get Corbyn elected as Labour Party leader and kept him there, now start applying pressure on him.

Momentum’s position, and the last Labour conference position, is that all options are open including a second referendum.

 

All options doesn't equate to any position. The last conference only confirmed that Labour were open to anything and committed to nothing. We're leaving in just over 4 months and nobody has any clue what Labour thinks. If they believed in a second referendum they should be out and clear now. But they're shitebags. 

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, HTG said:

All options doesn't equate to any position. The last conference only confirmed that Labour were open to anything and committed to nothing. We're leaving in just over 4 months and nobody has any clue what Labour thinks. If they believed in a second referendum they should be out and clear now. But they're shitebags. 

The problem is that all parties are trying to be everything to everyone and it just doesn't work. Each party needs to nail their colours to the mast and then see what happens but this will not happen as it's all about personal battles between individuals within parties and also groups within parties vying for power with each other.

Brexit has really just highlighted how disjointed and ineffectual our politics in this country has become and also how the majority of our politicians are self serving incompetents..........

[Granny Danger]

34 minutes ago, HTG said:

All options doesn't equate to any position. The last conference only confirmed that Labour were open to anything and committed to nothing. We're leaving in just over 4 months and nobody has any clue what Labour thinks. If they believed in a second referendum they should be out and clear now. But they're shitebags. 

I think their position is clearer than the Tories, but not much clearer.  They have consistently said they would judge any deal brought forward by the 'six tests' they have set out.

I agree that their position is a fudge but that is because Corbyn wants to force a GE and I think that whilst Parliament might force a second referendum there is no way the Tories will want a GE.

 

[Ira Gaines]

Labour's position IS clear. We're getting Brexit whether we like it or not. Which is to be expected from their leader given he's a staunch brexiteer, but I hope that a big portion of the party is willing to turn their back on him if they ever get the chance to take it to a second vote.

[NotThePars]

The six tests are designed to be impossible to meet and force a general election. f**k knows what happens after that though. You would expect any possibility of a left of centre coalition government would force a second vote or a muted exit.

[Antlion]

2 hours ago, RedRob72 said:

But presumably it would become legitimate if it endorsed a reversal of 2016 result?

Legitimate? More “farcical”. Again, I would just let the motherland get on with it. The English government has made clear it isn’t interested in Scotland’s national voice when it comes to this issue, so why should the people of Scotland champion or decry its next bizarre move?

[coprolite]

25 minutes ago, Antlion said:

Legitimate? More “farcical”. Again, I would just let the motherland get on with it. The English government has made clear it isn’t interested in Scotland’s national voice when it comes to this issue, so why should the people of Scotland champion or decry its next bizarre move?

 

England doesn't have a goverment.

Scotland doesn't have a national voice.

This is the sort of disjointed ranting I would expect from a raging brexit fan. 

[UsedToGoToCentralPark]

Labour's position IS clear. We're getting Brexit whether we like it or not. Which is to be expected from their leader given he's a staunch brexiteer, but I hope that a big portion of the party is willing to turn their back on him if they ever get the chance to take it to a second vote.

A lot of Labour constituencies voted leave. Those sitting MPs will be unlikely to go against their constituents in any sort of quantity.

Corbyn wants Brexit as well so not looking good for any sort of parliamentary vote which at the end of the day is only for deal or no deal.

Brexit can't be stopped.

[NotThePars]

Didn’t the Tory rebels vote with the government against having a “meaningful vote”?

[Antlion]

1 hour ago, coprolite said:

 

England doesn't have a goverment.

Scotland doesn't have a national voice.

This is the sort of disjointed ranting I would expect from a raging brexit fan. 

England doesn’t have a government? That’s a new one. I can’t imagine how anything gets done. What on Earth do the people of England do on election days? And who or what is using Henry VIII powers?

[Granny Danger]

2 hours ago, Antlion said:

Legitimate? More “farcical”. Again, I would just let the motherland get on with it. The English government has made clear it isn’t interested in Scotland’s national voice when it comes to this issue, so why should the people of Scotland champion or decry its next bizarre move?

It is the job of Scottish politicians to look after the interest of the Scottish people; anything else is an abrogation of their responsibility.

We will all be affected adversely by a bad Brexit deal but, as usual, it will be the most vulnerable who will suffer more than anyone else.

Politicians have a duty not to ignore that fact.

 

[Antlion]

27 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

It is the job of Scottish politicians to look after the interest of the Scottish people; anything else is an abrogation of their responsibility.

We will all be affected adversely by a bad Brexit deal but, as usual, it will be the most vulnerable who will suffer more than anyone else.

Politicians have a duty not to ignore that fact.

 

Indeed it is - but within a system in which certain matters are reserved, they cannot do that. There is simply no reason or requirement on the part of the UK’s legislators to listen. MSPs were elected to look after the interests of the Scottish people in devolved matters. It’s infuriating and stupid, but such is the nature of the UK’s ad hoc, asymmetrical setup. From the UK perspective, as they’ve repeatedly and smugly crowed, it is not the job or even the right of MSPs to look after the people of Scotland with regard to Brexit; and if they try, they’ll be treated with contempt. To let England get on with its bizarre Brexit pantomime is not to abrogate their responsibility; it’s to remain in charge of what the superior government has demonstrably shown is their responsibility. Brexit is not and has never been Scotland’s business. We just have to live with what’s decided for us. There is literally nothing else of actual value we can do beyond complaining (only to be accused of nurturing grievance or interfering). That gets us nowhere.

Now the Scottish government throwing any and every legal spanner they can in the UK works over Brexit - that I can get on board with. 

[Fullerene]

5 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

It would be helpful if Momentum, who have done so much to get Corbyn elected as Labour Party leader and kept him there, now start applying pressure on him.

Momentum’s position, and the last Labour conference position, is that all options are open including a second referendum.

Momentum and a lot of Labour members thought Jeremy Corbyn was a breath of fresh air - that unlike previous leaders, he would listen to the membership and go with policies that the membership wanted.

That works fine, when the membership are pushing him in the direction he already wants to go anyway.

However Brexit illustrates where he is out of step with the membership as a whole.
He wrote down his plan for a better Britain decades ago and it did not include membership of the EU.
Even if the EU has changed since then, he has no intention of revising his plan.
Even if there is every suggestion that Brexit will wipe out the rest of his plan - he is unable to change.
It is this inflexibility that holds down the Labour vote.
People expect a certain amount of pragmatism for a national leader.  He is unable to show it.

It is just bizarre that there are people in the Labour Party who think he is less dictatorial than all previous Labour leaders.

[Granny Danger]

53 minutes ago, Antlion said:

Indeed it is - but within a system in which certain matters are reserved, they cannot do that. There is simply no reason or requirement on the part of the UK’s legislators to listen. MSPs were elected to look after the interests of the Scottish people in devolved matters. It’s infuriating and stupid, but such is the nature of the UK’s ad hoc, asymmetrical setup. From the UK perspective, as they’ve repeatedly and smugly crowed, it is not the job or even the right of MSPs to look after the people of Scotland with regard to Brexit; and if they try, they’ll be treated with contempt. To let England get on with its bizarre Brexit pantomime is not to abrogate their responsibility; it’s to remain in charge of what the superior government has demonstrably shown is their responsibility. Brexit is not and has never been Scotland’s business. We just have to live with what’s decided for us. There is literally nothing else of actual value we can do beyond complaining (only to be accused of nurturing grievance or interfering). That gets us nowhere.

Now the Scottish government throwing any and every legal spanner they can in the UK works over Brexit - that I can get on board with. 

Yes Brexit is reserved to the U.K. Parliament where the SNP have a number of seats and votes.  In the whole Brexit debacle these could actually be the decisive votes.

2 minutes ago, Fullerene said:

Momentum and a lot of Labour members thought Jeremy Corbyn was a breath of fresh air - that unlike previous leaders, he would listen to the membership and go with policies that the membership wanted.

That works fine, when the membership are pushing him in the direction he already wants to go anyway.

However Brexit illustrates where he is out of step with the membership as a whole.
He wrote down his plan for a better Britain decades ago and it did not include membership of the EU.
Even if the EU has changed since then, he has no intention of revising his plan.
Even if there is every suggestion that Brexit will wipe out the rest of his plan - he is unable to change.
It is this inflexibility that holds down the Labour vote.
People expect a certain amount of pragmatism for a national leader.  He is unable to show it.

It is just bizarre that there are people in the Labour Party who think he is less dictatorial than all previous Labour leaders.

Good post.

If one thing should have changed under Corbyn it should have been collective policy making.

As you say on this score he’s no better than the right wingers who preceded him.

 

[coprolite]

2 hours ago, Antlion said:

England doesn’t have a government? That’s a new one. I can’t imagine how anything gets done. What on Earth do the people of England do on election days? And who or what is using Henry VIII powers?

No. No it's not. It doesn't. Vote for local governments, MEPs or the Uk government. Ermm.... is it batman?

[Antlion]

2 hours ago, coprolite said:

No. No it's not. It doesn't. Vote for local governments, MEPs or the Uk government. Ermm.... is it batman?

The UK government is the English government. It sat in the English parliament before May 1st 1707 and sat as the English parliament, unchanged in its customs and traditions, but increased in its territorial power, on May 2nd 1707. The union stated that the Scotland would be represented in the imperial parliament in London by sixteen peers and forty commons. As  historians Mitchison and Barrow put it:

“In reality, of course, the English Parliament continued to exist, its traditions, powers and procedures unchanged except that a few new members representing Scotland were added to it.”

The Commission on the Constitution similarly states:

”Since 1707 Parliament in traditions , procedure and attitudes has acted as a continuation of the English Parliament.”

If they’re wrong, of course, perhaps you can explain how the “UK parliament” can use powers established as the powers of the English parliament several hundred years before there was a UK. 

From what I’ve seen, most English folk don’t seem to think they lost a Parliament in 1707, either at the time or now. Probably that’s because they didn’t; their parliament simply expanded its power over the north part of Britain and carried on as it always had. 

Edited November 12, 2018 by Antlion

[Antlion]

2 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

This chat must go down well on the doorsteps ^

You hang about on doorsteps?

[Antlion]

2 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

I have campaigned for a political party during am election, yes.

More power to you...

[welshbairn]

Westminster Parliament surely? I don't remember Hackney or Liverpool having much say in it.

[lichtgilphead]

22 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

I have campaigned for a political party during am election, yes.

Just in the morning then? Part-timer.