Martin McGuinness resigns, Stormont in chaos

[LongTimeLurker]

Not sure he was into the Israeli PR angle, but more or less in some ways as he argued that an Ulster identity that people on both sides of the divide could identify with should ultimately be pushed in place of traditional Unionism, but his role in articulating something not too far off what ultimately happened in terms of the peace process has been airbrushed out of the history books because he was no Mahatma Gandhi.

[Jacksgranda]

2 hours ago, WaffenThinMint said:

So because X did Y all those years ago, those who weren't even born at that time are to gnash their teeth about it too, rather than see him as being part of the place in time where the line was finally drawn after centuries of bigotry & intolerance - part of which was for the perverse "fun of it" if you're honest: those marches & garish gable end murals you love to have in order to rub "the other side" 's noses in it with depressing monotony.

Revenge, reprisals & whataboutery, Northern Ireland's heritage that left it for decades as one of the most backward parts of the First World, a province long in the grip of a social psychosis that would have turned anyone evil.

Had we taken your route to "progress" there would have been no end to the Cold War & the dreadful Soviet dictatorship over its helpless neighbours as that would have meant rejecting the early peristroika overtones from their leader Yuri Andropov - the Butcher of Budapest & Prague -  the blood of whose hands from his time running the KGB & the Gulags ran to the millions. We would still have not moved on from the Germans & Japanese' behaviour in the 30s & 40s & be boycotting their goods "in principle". Our former colonies in Africa would refuse to have any dealings with us at all.

The old have to move on from yesterday in order that they can live today - otherwise for no one will there be any sort of tomorrow.

I don't care what people "who weren't even born at the time think about him", (the majority of my grandchildren, as it happens), but they need to be told what he did before he became Saint Martin of the Decommissioned.

There was no need for the murder campaign, which was never going to achieve the aim of a united Ireland, far less an Ireland of equals, and McGuinness was responsible for many atrocities. He knows who murdered all these people - either he gives up their names or he shuts a up about state murders - and there were state murders - and leaves it to those without blood on their hands to pursue those responsible. And there was no justification for the murder campaign going on for the guts of 30 years.

And don't start me on the so-called "loyalists"...

[Jacksgranda]

5 hours ago, Jacksgranda said:

Name the guilty men.

Give examples and show your workings.

Still waiting. Expect I'll have a long wait, I suspect DrewDon was attempting to be "edgy", rather than stupid.

[NotThePars]

I just find it amusing when you have people like RedRob, who has attempted to cast aspersions on SNP members because of their Irishy names, are straight in with a very one-sided view of the conflict. And the reason you're still waiting is because I can't be bothered checking in on every thread I've commented in, guy.

[Jacksgranda]

20 hours ago, NotThePars said:

Wow well the prods on here are certainly a joyless bunch.

 

6 hours ago, Jacksgranda said:

Name the guilty men.

 

 

29 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

Still waiting.

 

10 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

I just find it amusing when you have people like RedRob, who has attempted to cast aspersions on SNP members because of their Irishy names, are straight in with a very one-sided view of the conflict. And the reason you're still waiting is because I can't be bothered checking in on every thread I've commented in, guy.

One "joyless prod", then. In your very humble opinion.

Perhaps you could give us your nuanced account of "the conflict". Or, is that too, too much bother?

 

[NotThePars]

2 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

 

 

 

One "joyless prod", then. In your very humble opinion.

Perhaps you could give us your nuanced account of "the conflict". Or, is that too, too much bother.

 

Don't think you need a great deal of insight to acknowledge it wasn't just the republicans at fault, m9. 

[Co.Down Hibee]

1 minute ago, NotThePars said:

 

Don't think you need a great deal of insight to acknowledge it wasn't just the republicans at fault, m9. 

i don't think any of the "prods" were suggesting this to be fair.

[NotThePars]

i don't think any of the "prods" were suggesting this to be fair.

There's been a million and one threads on this issue before where posters attempt to place the majority of the blame on the other side. Maybe it's because there's not really many Irish republican posters other than caohnmin (sp?) to provide the contrast it ends up one sided.

[Jacksgranda]

4 minutes ago, Co.Down Hibee said:

i don't think any of the "prods" were suggesting this to be fair.

Correct.

[welshbairn]

14 hours ago, RedRob72 said:

McGuinness will be replaced by Michelle O'Neill, (she's miles in front of Gerry Kelly) She's a face like a bag of hammers, but I'd still shag her, and up the arse, just for badness!!

There seems to be a common thread for right wingers to gauge female politicians on their shaggability. 

[Jacksgranda]

Just now, welshbairn said:

There seems to be a common thread for right wingers to gauge female politicians on their shaggability. 

You make that sound like a bad thing...

[welshbairn]

2 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

You make that sound like a bad thing...

Fair enough in a "wid ye?" thread but it's a bit 1970's to rate them politically on that basis.

[LongTimeLurker]

1 minute ago, NotThePars said:

There's been a million and one threads on this issue before where posters attempt to place the majority of the blame on the other side. Maybe it's because there's not really many Irish republican posters other than caohnmin (sp?) to provide the contrast it ends up one sided.

An obvious difference though is that the Unionist side isn't voting former terrorists into high office. If somebody like Michael Stone was First Minister rather than in jail where he belongs, I suspect people would keep bringing up Milltown.

 

[NotThePars]

Tbf Stone didn't really have much of a chance to get his political career going what with the attempted murders after the GFA.

[welshbairn]

3 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

An obvious difference though is that the Unionist side isn't voting former terrorists into high office. If somebody like Michael Stone was First Minister rather than in jail where he belongs, I suspect people would keep bringing up Milltown.

 

The Unionists had experienced politicians to choose from who kept a discrete arms length from getting their hands dirty. I'd say Ian Paisley was more responsible for the violence than anybody.

[LongTimeLurker]

24 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

The Unionists had experienced politicians to choose from who kept a discrete arms length from getting their hands dirty. I'd say Ian Paisley was more responsible for the violence than anybody.

Ever heard of John Hume and the SDLP? There was an alternative to McGuinness and SF that initially was getting more votes after the GFA. Think Gusty Spence and the UVF have a lot more to answer for than Ian Paisley on the Unionist/Loyalist side of things for the spiral of violence kicking off and their political representatives the PUP haven't made much of an impact electorally. The whole everything was wonderful under Terence O'Neill and then this bible thumping lunatic came along and stirred up all the trouble line of explaining things is a very useful narrative for those that were part of the pre-72 Stormont one party state and those in the Westminster elite that turned a blind eye and did nothing about the culture of discrimination that built up in NI over the decades, and tends to get repeated uncritically by media outlets like the BBC.

[Co.Down Hibee]

 

 

16 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

Tbf Stone didn't really have much of a chance to get his political career going what with the attempted murders after the GFA.

Micheal Stones political career couldn't get going because like most loyalist spokespeople/terrorists he has the intelligence of a satsuma...

whatever you say about Adams and old clownface they have lead their party with a carefully planned strategy with the ability to converse coherently with state leaders , they have won support because of their ability to give their electorate the belief that they are fully committed in their ideology and siezed opportunities when presented with them. I am by no means a supporter of either of them,or for that matter any political party here but there is no denying the success of Sinn Fein is something that no Loyalist party could have ever come close to achieving at any time,mainly due to leadership and its members.

[Jacksgranda]

17 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

The Unionists had experienced politicians to choose from who kept a discrete arms length from getting their hands dirty. I'd say Ian Paisley was more responsible for the violence than anybody.

And the Nationalists had no politicians? I didn't realise the discrimination extended to becoming a politician. Gerry Fitt, Paddy Devlin, John Hume, Eddie McGrady, Seamus Mallon, Eddie McAteer, Bernadette Devlin et al must have slipped by the scrutiny committee.

Paisley was a rabble rouser - on occasion - but I hardly think he was "more responsible for the violence than anybody". His language could be inflammatory and his words could sometimes be interpreted as an incitement to violence. He wasn't cleaner than clean, either.

The people responsible for the violence were the terrorists and gangsters on both sides. And they are still at it., a married couple in their 50s were shot in their legs in Turf Lodge last night.

[Co.Down Hibee]

3 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

And the Nationalists had no politicians? I didn't realise the discrimination extended to becoming a politician. Gerry Fitt, Paddy Devlin, John Hume, Eddie McGrady, Seamus Mallon, Eddie McAteer, Bernadette Devlin et al must have slipped by the scrutiny committee.

Paisley was a rabble rouser - on occasion - but I hardly think he was "more responsible for the violence than anybody". His language could be inflammatory and his words could sometimes be interpreted as an incitement to violence. He wasn't cleaner than clean, either.

The people responsible for the violence were the terrorists and gangsters on both sides. And they are still at it., a married couple in their 50s were shot in their legs in Turf Lodge last night.

I believe those non-drug dealing dissidents were after the son...

[Jacksgranda]

Just now, Co.Down Hibee said:

I believe those non-drug dealing dissidents were after the son...

Reading between the lines I thought it was something like that, but I can't find the story now. Although the father was involved in an "argument" in a pub at Christmas. Shades of Robert McCartney.