LongTimeLurker Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 7 hours ago, Talbot Bing said: Forced? Calm down ya clown Take away the automatic forced promotion angle and it would probably all be easy enough to do in the central belt, if the two superleague champions had the right to playoff for LL entry but season after season opted not to. Suspect the SoS clubs would be happy enough with that sort of arrangement as well as Wigtown are rumoured to be about to refuse promotion, if they are champions this year. At that point the pyramid would be there for any club that wanted to do it and there would be no reason for the SFA to knock back any full membership applications. Think it's obvious that up north the Highland League don't want to open themselves up to relegation, because over a decade or two about half its current clubs know full well that they would probably be replaced by junior teams from in and around Aberdeen, if that ever happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bundesliga Boy Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 19 hours ago, Talbot Bing said: Forced? Calm down ya clown Intelligent input from Auchinleck as always. I was referring to the league being instructed to act as a feeder to the Highland for the betterment of the game and to expand the pyramid where possible, especially when it's the one part of the country where it would be easy to achieve. If clubs who won the league didn't wish to go up for whatever reason, normally distance and finances etc, that's up to them and I'd have no issue with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talbot Bing Posted March 30, 2017 Author Share Posted March 30, 2017 Intelligent input from Auchinleck as always. I was referring to the league being instructed to act as a feeder to the Highland for the betterment of the game and to expand the pyramid where possible, especially when it's the one part of the country where it would be easy to achieve. If clubs who won the league didn't wish to go up for whatever reason, normally distance and finances etc, that's up to them and I'd have no issue with that. The minute you mentioned "forced" you lost credibility in a any point of view. You obviously have a one sided view on the things. Head to the random objects forum for that my friend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaffenThinMint Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 I've been primarily biting my lip over this matter as to be honest whatever we say is not going to change a thing, but with certain Talbot posters reverting to type today with the sort of tripe certain Record reading morons parrotted which have been used to denigrate the Junior grade as a whole after Bonnyrigg's mauling at the hands of a full strength Scottish Cup holders, screw it, any silent sympathy has now evaporated. Let's be clear about this, no matter what the disclaimers, that "regeneration committee" would not have been allowed to post it on the official Talbot website unless it was with the club's consent - kept up just long enough for it to disseminate before being taken down again as if "not approved" - all part & parcel of the ludicrous sense of entitlement to "having their cake & eating it" within Junior ranks, with the expectation everyone else in football gives them special dispensation to do so without censure or consequences, because "that's just their way." If ever a moment encapsulated what wrong with the Juniors - not the SFA, whose patience would have done credit to a Macmillan nurse - this is it. By their own admission Talbot missed the boat (A new approach demanding full commitment to the pyramid system has been enforced after Linlithgow Rose’s Licence award means that Rose can indeed enjoy the rewards of a licence without being forced out of Junior Football. Banks O'Dee have a similar arrangement.). So what if the terms and conditions changed thereafter? It's as ludicrous to complain about the SFA's ultimatum as having a tantrum in Argos because the wide screen TV you want isn't at the special offer price from three months ago any more. That's life: you snooze, you lose. Peebles Rovers can't get back into the Scottish Cup any longer because the rules changed from their original SFA membership to the time of their return in the 80s from the Juniors. The latter part of that statement probably illustrated the best what many find so exasperating about Talbot (or its flag of convenience) crying foul over events: "So, what can be done? Will Junior clubs accept this? Will the SJFA roll over and allow their clubs to be discriminated in such a fashion? Could such an outrageous scenario unfold in any other country?" As to the first part: "Will Junior clubs accept this? Will the SJFA roll over and allow their clubs to be discriminated in such a fashion?" - the truth is the overwhelming majority of Junior clubs will not care a rat's arse that Talbot have been told to accept the terms & conditions laid down for allowing their continued entry into the main Scottish Cup (& let's be clear about this, that is what's bothering Talbot so much, all that lovely lolly). Why should they care? Talbot have done very nicely out of it - thank you very much - & not once saw fit to share any of that largesse earned with those fellow Juniors they expect bizarrely to stand united with on this matter. It's all very well pleading "discrimination" to clubs who never had a chance in hell of ever getting into that Senior Scottish Cup anyway, & whose main ambition is often simply to still be around next season whilst Talbot & the Rose, etc. pulled further & further away from them c/o of a near permanent free pass into the "big" Scottish Cup. The last part of the Talbot statement is particularly ironic considering the "outrageous scenario" of two separate & competing non-league structures being allowed to exist in the first place: with the Junior one largely doing whatever it likes & with an attitude of largely bugger the rest of Scottish football. So, sorry Talbot, but it's time to man up - you're not being "discriminated" against, any more than the rest of Scotland's non-league Seniors are being discriminated against in not being allowed to play in the Junior's own Scottish Cup. It's the SFA's rules for getting to play with the "big kids", you missed your chance to get the better offer, & if you don't like it... well, there's still your own grade if the peasantry of the South or East of Scotland is somehow beneath you (even if it would only be one season of hilarious cricket scores before the inevitable automatic promotion by St Valentine's Day to the Lowlands). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talbot Bing Posted March 31, 2017 Author Share Posted March 31, 2017 I've been primarily biting my lip over this matter as to be honest whatever we say is not going to change a thing, but with certain Talbot posters reverting to type today with the sort of tripe certain Record reading morons parrotted which have been used to denigrate the Junior grade as a whole after Bonnyrigg's mauling at the hands of a full strength Scottish Cup holders, screw it, any silent sympathy has now evaporated. Let's be clear about this, no matter what the disclaimers, that "regeneration committee" would not have been allowed to post it on the official Talbot website unless it was with the club's consent - kept up just long enough for it to disseminate before being taken down again as if "not approved" - all part & parcel of the ludicrous sense of entitlement to "having their cake & eating it" within Junior ranks, with the expectation everyone else in football gives them special dispensation to do so without censure or consequences, because "that's just their way." If ever a moment encapsulated what wrong with the Juniors - not the SFA, whose patience would have done credit to a Macmillan nurse - this is it. By their own admission Talbot missed the boat (A new approach demanding full commitment to the pyramid system has been enforced after Linlithgow Rose’s Licence award means that Rose can indeed enjoy the rewards of a licence without being forced out of Junior Football. Banks O'Dee have a similar arrangement.). So what if the terms and conditions changed thereafter? It's as ludicrous to complain about the SFA's ultimatum as having a tantrum in Argos because the wide screen TV you want isn't at the special offer price from three months ago any more. That's life: you snooze, you lose. Peebles Rovers can't get back into the Scottish Cup any longer because the rules changed from their original SFA membership to the time of their return in the 80s from the Juniors. The latter part of that statement probably illustrated the best what many find so exasperating about Talbot (or its flag of convenience) crying foul over events: "So, what can be done? Will Junior clubs accept this? Will the SJFA roll over and allow their clubs to be discriminated in such a fashion? Could such an outrageous scenario unfold in any other country?" As to the first part: "Will Junior clubs accept this? Will the SJFA roll over and allow their clubs to be discriminated in such a fashion?" - the truth is the overwhelming majority of Junior clubs will not care a rat's arse that Talbot have been told to accept the terms & conditions laid down for allowing their continued entry into the main Scottish Cup (& let's be clear about this, that is what's bothering Talbot so much, all that lovely lolly). Why should they care? Talbot have done very nicely out of it - thank you very much - & not once saw fit to share any of that largesse earned with those fellow Juniors they expect bizarrely to stand united with on this matter. It's all very well pleading "discrimination" to clubs who never had a chance in hell of ever getting into that Senior Scottish Cup anyway, & whose main ambition is often simply to still be around next season whilst Talbot & the Rose, etc. pulled further & further away from them c/o of a near permanent free pass into the "big" Scottish Cup. The last part of the Talbot statement is particularly ironic considering the "outrageous scenario" of two separate & competing non-league structures being allowed to exist in the first place: with the Junior one largely doing whatever it likes & with an attitude of largely bugger the rest of Scottish football. So, sorry Talbot, but it's time to man up - you're not being "discriminated" against, any more than the rest of Scotland's non-league Seniors are being discriminated against in not being allowed to play in the Junior's own Scottish Cup. It's the SFA's rules for getting to play with the "big kids", you missed your chance to get the better offer, & if you don't like it... well, there's still your own grade if the peasantry of the South or East of Scotland is somehow beneath you (even if it would only be one season of hilarious cricket scores before the inevitable automatic promotion by St Valentine's Day to the Lowlands). A few good points there tbh. I would challenge the missed the chance bit at the end though. A common sense approach from to to bottom is needed if you want Scottish football to MoveOn from the static stalemate is in just now. Overall very well put ???? Not everyone is gong to like the Talbot but we are one of the big fishes in the Juniors like it or not. The SFA in my opinion is stuck in the past with people who leading it no knowledge is the Juniors set up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superbigal Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 If the Highland league ever opens up to the Pyramid it is not just the north juniors below it. What you going to do with Carnoustie, lochee utd, forfar West end and the other dozen odd junior teams north of the dividing line . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talbot Bing Posted March 31, 2017 Author Share Posted March 31, 2017 Something has to give Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Think Burnie_Man was right about signing the pledge and calling their bluff. If they take action at that stage you have something concrete to appeal against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kefc Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Kelty Hearts will be following through with their application, the licensing board meeting is on 20th April where everything will be discussed. We shall await the outcome from this with the hope it's a positive one with creative ideas and common sense prevailing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaffenThinMint Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 6 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said: Think Burnie_Man was right about signing the pledge and calling their bluff. If they take action at that stage you have something concrete to appeal against. All they have to do is run two separate teams. After Spartans set the precident they would be unable to reject it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 12 hours ago, WaffenThinMint said: I've been primarily biting my lip over this matter as to be honest whatever we say is not going to change a thing, but with certain Talbot posters reverting to type today with the sort of tripe certain Record reading morons parrotted which have been used to denigrate the Junior grade as a whole after Bonnyrigg's mauling at the hands of a full strength Scottish Cup holders, screw it, any silent sympathy has now evaporated. Let's be clear about this, no matter what the disclaimers, that "regeneration committee" would not have been allowed to post it on the official Talbot website unless it was with the club's consent - kept up just long enough for it to disseminate before being taken down again as if "not approved" - all part & parcel of the ludicrous sense of entitlement to "having their cake & eating it" within Junior ranks, with the expectation everyone else in football gives them special dispensation to do so without censure or consequences, because "that's just their way." If ever a moment encapsulated what wrong with the Juniors - not the SFA, whose patience would have done credit to a Macmillan nurse - this is it. By their own admission Talbot missed the boat (A new approach demanding full commitment to the pyramid system has been enforced after Linlithgow Rose’s Licence award means that Rose can indeed enjoy the rewards of a licence without being forced out of Junior Football. Banks O'Dee have a similar arrangement.). So what if the terms and conditions changed thereafter? It's as ludicrous to complain about the SFA's ultimatum as having a tantrum in Argos because the wide screen TV you want isn't at the special offer price from three months ago any more. That's life: you snooze, you lose. Peebles Rovers can't get back into the Scottish Cup any longer because the rules changed from their original SFA membership to the time of their return in the 80s from the Juniors. The latter part of that statement probably illustrated the best what many find so exasperating about Talbot (or its flag of convenience) crying foul over events: "So, what can be done? Will Junior clubs accept this? Will the SJFA roll over and allow their clubs to be discriminated in such a fashion? Could such an outrageous scenario unfold in any other country?" As to the first part: "Will Junior clubs accept this? Will the SJFA roll over and allow their clubs to be discriminated in such a fashion?" - the truth is the overwhelming majority of Junior clubs will not care a rat's arse that Talbot have been told to accept the terms & conditions laid down for allowing their continued entry into the main Scottish Cup (& let's be clear about this, that is what's bothering Talbot so much, all that lovely lolly). Why should they care? Talbot have done very nicely out of it - thank you very much - & not once saw fit to share any of that largesse earned with those fellow Juniors they expect bizarrely to stand united with on this matter. It's all very well pleading "discrimination" to clubs who never had a chance in hell of ever getting into that Senior Scottish Cup anyway, & whose main ambition is often simply to still be around next season whilst Talbot & the Rose, etc. pulled further & further away from them c/o of a near permanent free pass into the "big" Scottish Cup. The last part of the Talbot statement is particularly ironic considering the "outrageous scenario" of two separate & competing non-league structures being allowed to exist in the first place: with the Junior one largely doing whatever it likes & with an attitude of largely bugger the rest of Scottish football. So, sorry Talbot, but it's time to man up - you're not being "discriminated" against, any more than the rest of Scotland's non-league Seniors are being discriminated against in not being allowed to play in the Junior's own Scottish Cup. It's the SFA's rules for getting to play with the "big kids", you missed your chance to get the better offer, & if you don't like it... well, there's still your own grade if the peasantry of the South or East of Scotland is somehow beneath you (even if it would only be one season of hilarious cricket scores before the inevitable automatic promotion by St Valentine's Day to the Lowlands). Have you not completely missed the point? It is not whether Talbot missed the boat, it is that the boat is not fit for purpose and in its current state could be fatal for some attempting to make a journey in it. Do you really think that it is not right to question the wisdom of Talbot being forced to join the SoS league? Can I assure you that Talbot's incentive is not "all that lovely lolly" but has always been to progress the club into a modern non league football club, they have been doing just that on and off the park long before any pyramid was introduced. Beechwood Park is in many aspects way above licence standard, all the other provisos are in place, why not do the licence thing? The point that you have clearly missed, or avoided, is that currently the system in place would place clubs in jeopardy whilst giving other clubs advantages. Your views on this are clouded by your own dislike of the club to the fore in this issue, look at the issue not the club. If Talbot have found this impasse other clubs will too, get past your prejudice and contribute something that perhaps could help with a resolution would be my advice. It's not about Talbot, its about football being in a situation that has presented an absurd choice, and this is supposed to be in the name of progression! It will be interesting to see how Kelty get on, one outcome is that their application is rejected, and they could lose the fee. Good luck to them though, and that is genuine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talbot Bing Posted March 31, 2017 Author Share Posted March 31, 2017 Have you not completely missed the point? It is not whether Talbot missed the boat, it is that the boat is not fit for purpose and in its current state could be fatal for some attempting to make a journey in it. Do you really think that it is not right to question the wisdom of Talbot being forced to join the SoS league? Can I assure you that Talbot's incentive is not "all that lovely lolly" but has always been to progress the club into a modern non league football club, they have been doing just that on and off the park long before any pyramid was introduced. Beechwood Park is in many aspects way above licence standard, all the other provisos are in place, why not do the licence thing? The point that you have clearly missed, or avoided, is that currently the system in place would place clubs in jeopardy whilst giving other clubs advantages. Your views on this are clouded by your own dislike of the club to the fore in this issue, look at the issue not the club. If Talbot have found this impasse other clubs will too, get past your prejudice and contribute something that perhaps could help with a resolution would be my advice. It's not about Talbot, its about football being in a situation that has presented an absurd choice, and this is supposed to be in the name of progression! It will be interesting to see how Kelty get on, one outcome is that their application is rejected, and they could lose the fee. Good luck to them though, and that is genuine. I think wafer thin mint doesn't really know any of the Talbot set up. All they see is our reluctance to join the 'LL show. You can only put the point across to the folk. Some will understand some won't. In my opinion WTM had a good point of view but can't see both sides of the argument probably that's what let's them down in credibility of their honest opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kefc Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 54 minutes ago, WaffenThinMint said: All they have to do is run two separate teams. After Spartans set the precident they would be unable to reject it. Is it crazy to think a Junior Club could put a 2nd team to apply to compete in the EOS League and to apply for a licence ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Not when Spartans did something very similar in recent times and Banks O'Dee regularly play in senior grade competitions like the Aberdeenshire Cup and Aberdeenshire Shield. Only obvious problem is that the reinstatement fees kicks in if/when you move players back and forth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaffenThinMint Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 1 hour ago, Isabel Goudie said: Have you not completely missed the point? It is not whether Talbot missed the boat, it is that the boat is not fit for purpose and in its current state could be fatal for some attempting to make a journey in it. Au contraire, you have missed the point, which is that it is their organisation, & therefore their rules. Same as for the Juniors. As has been demonstrated from the beginnings of league football, "the journey" (interesting choice of description btw ;)) will always prove fatal to some - as Royal Albert, Beith, Vale of Leven, Clydebank & Gretna will testify. Even with the best will in the world, some will rashly undertake what they are incapable of, or will throw prior prudent planning to the wind in a dash for success, cut corners, & it all ends in disaster. But that is for the individual clubs themselves to decide. All that can be ascertained is the correct checks & balances are in place to ensure those fit & proper are allowed to progress forwards & upwards; that it seems certain that a ten year old club formed around a business plan rejected by a Junior club committee looks set on merit to replace a Senior side in the national league for 112 years makes such claims of "unfitness" risible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calmac25 Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 You would effectively have your reserve team playing in the Scottish cup which would defeat the purpose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 29 minutes ago, calmac25 said: You would effectively have your reserve team playing in the Scottish cup which would defeat the purpose Banks O'Dee seem to be able to move players between grades for North Superleague and Aberdeenshire League games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talbot Bing Posted March 31, 2017 Author Share Posted March 31, 2017 Banks O'Dee seem to be able to move players between grades for North Superleague and Aberdeenshire League games. [emoji85] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 All that's being pointed out is that there are precedents in place that could be useful to you on the club licensing thing. Kelty seem to be willing to actually try to push this on to resolution rather than just moaning about it, so good luck to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLENAFTON93 Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 1 hour ago, WaffenThinMint said: Au contraire, you have missed the point, which is that it is their organisation, & therefore their rules. Same as for the Juniors. As has been demonstrated from the beginnings of league football, "the journey" (interesting choice of description btw ;)) will always prove fatal to some - as Royal Albert, Beith, Vale of Leven, Clydebank & Gretna will testify. Even with the best will in the world, some will rashly undertake what they are incapable of, or will throw prior prudent planning to the wind in a dash for success, cut corners, & it all ends in disaster. But that is for the individual clubs themselves to decide. All that can be ascertained is the correct checks & balances are in place to ensure those fit & proper are allowed to progress forwards & upwards; that it seems certain that a ten year old club formed around a business plan rejected by a Junior club committee looks set on merit to replace a Senior side in the national league for 112 years makes such claims of "unfitness" risible. Your total hate not just of Talbot but anything Junior is very evident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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