Rodhull Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Sir Tarmo Kink said: Nope. I wasn’t waving off anything, I was pointing out the hypocrisy of a rabid nat that was willing to back blatant transphobia and anti-semitism but slag Boris for all sorts. It’s Nat hypocrisy at its finest. Any vote is democratic, cancelling the result of a vote is not. If you vote Labour, SNP or LibDems you are effectively encouraging anti-democracy. The results of votes are cancelled all the time. Every time there's an election and especially snap elections could be argued as no different. As long as it's brought about by an elected parliament it's entirely democratic. Besides Labours position is to have another confirmatory referendum isn't it? If you're truly in favour of democracy it shouldn't be an issue. Going ahead with a disastrous Brexit with a government acting in bad faith would be monumentally stupid and cutting off the nose to spite the face. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Tarmo Kink Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 The results of votes are cancelled all the time. Every time there's an election and especially snap elections could be argued as no different. As long as it's brought about by an elected parliament it's entirely democratic. Besides Labours position is to have another confirmatory referendum isn't it? If you're truly in favour of democracy it shouldn't be an issue. Going ahead with a disastrous Brexit with a government acting in bad faith would be monumentally stupid and cutting off the nose to spite the face.A confirmatory referendum is ignoring the result of the original referendum. This is undemocratic. If that happens, we’re going to have another 2-3 years wasted simply because the anti-democracy sore loser remainers can’t accept the result of the original democratic vote.If we have a second referendum, it also casts doubt over any future referendum on any issue. Will my vote ever count? Or will it be deemed null and void with another referendum on the same issue a few years later? It’s a dangerous precedent to set and an undemocratic move. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodhull Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 Just now, Sir Tarmo Kink said: If that happens, we’re going to have another 2-3 years wasted simply because the anti-democracy sore loser remainers can’t accept the result of the original democratic vote. As opposed to the years wasted already because the leave campaigners lied through their teeth about the kind of Brexit they would get and have spent years failing to deliver anything close to it and blaming everyone else for it? As monumentally stupid as Brexit is it's worth doing it right (and by that I mean not tanking the entire UK economy) if it's going to be done at all. Having a tantrum and pushing a hard Brexit through at all cost is complete idiocy and anyone pushing for that is a complete clown. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Tarmo Kink Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 As opposed to the years wasted already because the leave campaigners lied through their teeth about the kind of Brexit they would get and have spent years failing to deliver anything close to it and blaming everyone else for it? As monumentally stupid as Brexit is it's worth doing it right (and by that I mean not tanking the entire UK economy) if it's going to be done at all. Having a tantrum and pushing a hard Brexit through at all cost is complete idiocy and anyone pushing for that is a complete clown. The years have been wasted because Corbyn, Sturgeon and several other remainers were never going to accept any deal even if it offered every member of the public a million each. They were angling to push to Tory leaders out of government. It worked with May, but Johnson has called their bluff and will stroll to a majority and then deliver what the public voted for. If a deal can’t be agreed, then a no-deal Brexit is a possibility. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodhull Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 Just now, Sir Tarmo Kink said: The years have been wasted because Corbyn, Sturgeon and several other remainers were never going to accept any deal even if it offered every member of the public a million each. They were angling to push to Tory leaders out if government. It worked with May, but Johnson has called their bluff and will stroll to a majority and then deliver what the public voted for. If a deal can’t be agreed, then a no-deal Brexit is a possibility. The conservatives had a working majority then fucked that and had a narrow majority along with the DUP. If they had negotiated a decent deal they should have been able to get it through regardless of what the other parties thought. The Tories are solely responsible for their failure to get Brexit done. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted December 10, 2019 Author Share Posted December 10, 2019 The conservatives had a working majority then fucked that and had a narrow majority along with the DUP. If they had negotiated a decent deal they should have been able to get it through regardless of what the other parties thought. The Tories are solely responsible for their failure to get Brexit done.This, I'm surprised they haven't been attacked on it 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Tarmo Kink Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 The conservatives had a working majority then fucked that and had a narrow majority along with the DUP. If they had negotiated a decent deal they should have been able to get it through regardless of what the other parties thought. The Tories are solely responsible for their failure to get Brexit done.The Tories didn’t have a majority last time round and the DUP always had remain leanings due to the backstop issue to it was never going to be easy for the Tories. Especially with Labour and SNP actively campaigning against the wish of the people.Having a confirmatory referendum would be disastrous and undemocratic. If you think otherwise then you have a Remain agenda. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted December 10, 2019 Author Share Posted December 10, 2019 The Tories didn’t have a majority last time round and the DUP always had remain leanings due to the backstop issue to it was never going to be easy for the Tories. Especially with Labour and SNP actively campaigning against the wish of the people.Having a confirmatory referendum would be disastrous and undemocratic. If you think otherwise then you have a Remain agenda. They had a majority post 2015 election. They could easily have got Brexit done, but cocky hopeless maybot wanted more. Torys are vermin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodhull Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Sir Tarmo Kink said: The Tories didn’t have a majority last time round and the DUP always had remain leanings due to the backstop issue to it was never going to be easy for the Tories. Especially with Labour and SNP actively campaigning against the wish of the people. Having a confirmatory referendum would be disastrous and undemocratic. If you think otherwise then you have a Remain agenda. They had a majority when the snap election was called didn't they? I thought they had 330 seats after the 2015 election. They fucked it. And how would it be disastrous? You not wanting something does not necessarily mean it would be a disaster. Edited December 10, 2019 by Rodhull 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorlomin Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 Worlds second biggest economy is getting plastered by the US and bullied into renegotiating its trade deal in a far less favourable fashion. We have a $2.8 trillion dollar economy, China has a $13.4 trillion dollar one. We have f**k all leverage and no friends in the big bad cold world. There is a reason the Brexiters shit themselves at the thought of a second referendum. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Tarmo Kink Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 They had a majority when the snap election was called didn't they? I thought they had 330 seats after the 2015 election. They fucked it. And how would it be disastrous? You not wanting something does not necessarily mean it would be a disaster.I said the didn’t have one after 2017, when the deals were being prepared.Having a confirmatory referendum would be disastrous. It’s not only undemocratic, it’s a dangerous precedent to set for the future and a another waste of time. Your last sentence is ironic considering Remainers want the result of the vote to be void because they lost. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Tarmo Kink Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 Worlds second biggest economy is getting plastered by the US and bullied into renegotiating its trade deal in a far less favourable fashion. We have a $2.8 trillion dollar economy, China has a $13.4 trillion dollar one. We have f**k all leverage and no friends in the big bad cold world. There is a reason the Brexiters shit themselves at the thought of a second referendum. They don’t shit themselves. They want the democratic vote to be honoured. Cancelling it or ignoring it would be undemocratic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorlomin Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 (edited) We will have 11 months to negotiate a trade deal with Europe as imposed by the Tories otherwise we crash out with WTO rules on December 31 2020. Where is the problem? The US is currently smashing up the WTO. https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/12/09/trump-may-kill-wto-finally-appellate-body-world-trade-organization/ With no WTO disputes body to go to, there is nothing to stop the US, Japan or China from slapping tariffs on us and we have nothing we can do in response except our much smaller economy trying to slap tarriffs on them. You will notice this very alarming state of affairs has not been front and centre this election. Almost as if the opposition has been lead by a low IQ mumbleclown who cannot work out how much trouble we could be in. Edited December 10, 2019 by dorlomin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elixir Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 19 minutes ago, Sir Tarmo Kink said: The Tories didn’t have a majority last time round and the DUP always had remain leanings due to the backstop issue to it was never going to be easy for the Tories. Especially with Labour and SNP actively campaigning against the wish of the people. Having a confirmatory referendum would be disastrous and undemocratic. If you think otherwise then you have a Remain agenda. The SNP campaigned for the will of the people they represent, bud. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodhull Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Sir Tarmo Kink said: I said the didn’t have one after 2017, when the deals were being prepared. Having a confirmatory referendum would be disastrous. It’s not only undemocratic, it’s a dangerous precedent to set for the future and a another waste of time. Your last sentence is ironic considering Remainers want the result of the vote to be void because they lost. And my point was that the conservatives sabotaged their own majority then made an even bigger arse of the Brexit negotiations after that than they were already doing. It's. all. their. fault. It's not really ironic as not everyone is saying they want the result voided. Having people decide whether it's worth doing especially given what a disaster the negotiations have been so far is just common sense and very democratic. People vote to go ahead with the monumental fuckup that is Brexit again then so be it. They'll certainly have a better clue what it means than they did last time. I understand that giving people more of an oversight into what the consequences of Brexit isn't really in the Tories favour obviously. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Tarmo Kink Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 The SNP campaigned for the will of the people they represent, bud.Well unfortunately for you Paulo, the SNP is a party in the UK which democratically voted to leave. And my point was that the conservatives sabotaged their own majority then made an even bigger arse of the Brexit negotiations after that than they were already doing. It's. all. their. fault. It's not really ironic as not everyone is saying they want the result voided. Having people decide whether it's worth doing especially given what a disaster the negotiations have been so far is just common sense and very democratic. People vote to go ahead with the monumental fuckup that is Brexit again then so be it. They'll certainly have a better clue what it means than they did last time. I understand that giving people more of an oversight into what the consequences of Brexit isn't really in the Tories favour obviously.It literally is not democratic in any way shape or form to ignore the result of a democratic vote. Brexit was voted for, and must happen. If we’re going to have a second referendum then why not a 3rd, or a 4th? When do we stop? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodhull Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 8 minutes ago, Sir Tarmo Kink said: It literally is not democratic in any way shape or form to ignore the result of a democratic vote. Brexit was voted for, and must happen. If we’re going to have a second referendum then why not a 3rd, or a 4th? When do we stop? Well maybe there's a lesson to be learned. Don't lie through your teeth in the campaign or take a ridiculous hard-line stance that you don't have a democratic mandate to get through. If they'd gone for any kind of soft Brexit or Norway style deal I'm sure it would have all been done by now but nope the hardliners had to overreach. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTG Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 15 minutes ago, Elixir said: The SNP campaigned for the will of the people they represent, bud. The SNP couldn't be more democratic in standing up for the 63%. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Tarmo Kink Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 Well maybe there's a lesson to be learned. Don't lie through your teeth in the campaign or take a ridiculous hard-line stance that you don't have a democratic mandate to get through. If they'd gone for any kind of soft Brexit or Norway style deal I'm sure it would have all been done by now but nope the hardliners had to overreach.Brexit was voted for. Accept it, get over it and stop with the excuses. You (I assume) are grateful to live in a democracy rather than a dictatorship so just let democracy happen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpetmonster Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 Brexit was voted for. Accept it, get over it and stop with the excuses. You (I assume) are grateful to live in a democracy rather than a dictatorship so just let democracy happen. As was the Scottish parliament returning a majority of independence-supporting MSPs, however you assert there's no mandate for indyref2. Good lad. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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