Oor Nicola Sturgeon thread.

[Guest Jedi]

Thanks @Brother Blades and @GiGi, both brilliant posts....not because you are agreeing with me on policy (which you aren't and I respect that), but because, you are going through things, point by point, and not simply dismissing me, (simply with the puddle drinking simpleton/moron etc), or Labour )with 'just as bad as the Tories, racist xenophobes, wouldn't implement a single policy etc) (although you do like a F*ck Labour @Brother Blades  fair enough)

I believe it was Nicola Sturgeon who today said that the SNP need to move out of their own echo chamber and try to convince peole who at the moment are No.

As she also said, 52% support for Independence shows progress, but...it still leaves nearly half the voters in a No position. 

Nobody I saw (and I certainly didn't), demanded that the SNP set out a socialist/utopian/left-wing paradise for Scotland.

The point I was making (in crayon), was that, last time around the Yes movement felt far more 'diverse' than it does at the moment. Of course you still had my bete noire, Andrew Wilson, and his bankers coalition and cronies, in the background, but you also had competing voices, notably RIC, the Common Weal etc.

My feeling, is that the SNP have moved in a different direction concerning left/right thinking under Nicola Sturgeon, which wasn't as apparent with Salmond. (see my other 'favourite' Kate Forbes)

No western democracy is ever going to be exactly 'free' of the shackles of the markets and the money men. I accept that. We are hardly going to become Venezuela overnight (Chavez's Venezuela that is).  You could argue that (all) the Labour Party has ever done when in government is tinker around the edges of a capitalist system. Probably a valid point. However, those tinkerings still led to  a lot of good for ordinary people, which the Tories will never implement......the creation of the NHS,  a Welfare State. Record levels of spending on health and education (under Blair, and yes, did he get a lot things wrong as well), Sure Start Centres, a minimum wage, windfall taxes on privatised utilities, an Equality Act...the list goes on.

I accept that the SNP are neither 'left' nor 'right', although from their days as a small party, their natural consistency was rural parts of the country/farmers etc, rather than urban, working class areas.  

That means that they have to try to be all things to all people at times, in an attempt to win Independence.....free prescriptions here, free bus travel there, but also freezing Council Taxes (a sop to middle class), trying to attract big business in Scotland, and making it easier for bankers to exert influence there. It is indeed a difficult tightrope to walk.

So, Socialist Utopia from NS next week? No, doesn't have to be, just open up the 'movement' again to a variety of voices. And btw for all Labour's singing God Save the King....I think its fair to say that NS was rather happy to fawn over the new monarch as well.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Jedi

[Antlion]

21 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Thanks @Brother Blades and @GiGi, both brilliant posts....not because you are agreeing with me on policy (which you aren't and I respect that), but because, you are going through things, point by point, and not simply dismissing me, (simply with the puddle drinking simpleton/moron etc), or Labour )with 'just as bad as the Tories, racist xenophobes, wouldn't implement a single policy etc) (although you do like a F*ck Labour @Brother Blades  fair enough)

Nobody I saw (and I certainly didn't), demanded that the SNP set out a socialist/utopian/left-wing paradise for Scotland.

No western democracy is ever going to be exactly 'free' of the shackles of the markets and the money men. I accept that. We are hardly going to become Venezuela overnight (Chavez's Venezuela that is).  You could argue that (all) the Labour Party has ever done when in government is tinker around the edges of a capitalist system. Probably a valid point. However, those tinkerings still led to  a lot of good for ordinary people, which the Tories will never implement......the creation of the NHS,  a Welfare State. Record levels of spending on health and education (under Blair, and yes, did he get a lot things wrong as well), Sure Start Centres, a minimum wage, windfall taxes on privatised utilities, an Equality Act...the list goes on.

That means that they have to try to be all things to all people at times

 

Looks to me like you’re demanding a hell of a lot more from the SNP, and in the short term from independence, than you are from Labour and the UK. Not all of us are content to accept Sir Keir benevolently “tinkering around the edges” whilst being “all things to all people” by supporting Brexit and demonising immigrants.

I really don’t think you can demand or expect a left-wing Scottish utopia and, if you don’t see it, then try and suggest that a temporarily-not-Tory UK (which, as you’ve said, can never be free of all the things you fear an iScotland might be) is better.

The big failure of the argument that historically the Labour Party instituted left-wing policies (and given Starmer has attacked the left wing of Labour far more than he’s ever attacked the Tories, I don’t think we can expect much from him) is that we are currently living in extremist Toryland. That right there is the problem; we can see, do see, and have long seen that in the UK the Tories rebound and are always in power far longer than Labour ever are, whether Labour are wearing their leftist hats, or their rightist hats, or Starmer’s current “all things to all people” hat.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Antlion

[Brother Blades]

13 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Thanks @Brother Blades and @GiGi, both brilliant posts....not because you are agreeing with me on policy (which you aren't and I respect that), but because, you are going through things, point by point, and not simply dismissing me, (simply with the puddle drinking simpleton/moron etc), or Labour )with 'just as bad as the Tories, racist xenophobes, wouldn't implement a single policy etc) (although you do like a F*ck Labour @Brother Blades  fair enough)

I believe it was Nicola Sturgeon who today said that the SNP need to move out of their own echo chamber and try to convince peole who at the moment are No.

As she also said, 52% support for Independence shows progress, but...it still leaves nearly half the voters in a No position. 

Nobody I saw (and I certainly didn't), demanded that the SNP set out a socialist/utopian/left-wing paradise for Scotland.

The point I was making (in crayon), was that, last time around the Yes movement felt far more 'diverse' than it does at the moment. Of course you still had my bete noire, Andrew Wilson, and his bankers coalition and cronies, in the background, but you also had competing voices, notably RIC, the Common Weal etc.

My feeling, is that the SNP have moved in a different direction concerning left/right thinking under Nicola Sturgeon, which wasn't as apparent with Salmond. 

No western democracy is ever going to be exactly 'free' of the shackles of the markets and the money men. I accept that. We are hardly going to become Venezuela overnight (Chavez's Venezuela that is).  You could argue that (all) the Labour Party has ever done when in government is tinker around the edges of a capitalist system. Probably a valid point. However, those tinkerings still led to  a lot of good for ordinary people, which the Tories will never implement......the creation of the NHS,  a Welfare State. Record levels of spending on health and education (under Blair, and yes, did he get a lot things wrong as well), Sure Start Centres, a minimum wage, windfall taxes on privatised utilities, an Equality Act...the list goes on.

I accept that the SNP are neither 'left' nor 'right', although from their days as a small party, their natural consistency was rural parts of the country/farmers etc, rather than urban, working class areas.  

That means that they have to try to be all things to all people at times, in an attempt to win Independence.....free prescriptions here, free bus travel there, but also freezing Council Taxes (a sop to middle class), trying to attract big business in Scotland, and making it easier for bankers to exert influence there. It is indeed a difficult tightrope to walk.

So, Socialist Utopia from NS next week? No, doesn't have to be, just open up the 'movement' again to a variety of voices. And btw for all Labour's singing God Save the King....I think its fair to say that NS was rather happy to fawn over the new monarch as well.

For the most part, that is a very decent post, if only for the fact that your preference is Labour, who have actively shut down the left, have upcoming scandals of Islamophobia & sexism on the horizon, I never ever thought I’d see the day when front bench opposition Labour MPs were condemned for attending picket lines! Yeah, pick holes in SNP & their “inclusiveness to differing views” but ffs, don’t do it under the guise of Labour being better! That, I consider trolling. Bed time for me, I’ve got a picket line to attend in the morning. 

[Guest Jedi]

11 minutes ago, Antlion said:

Looks to me like you’re demanding a hell of a lot more from the SNP, and in the short term from independence, than you are from Labour and the UK. Not all of us are content to accept Sir Keir benevolently “tinkering around the edges” whilst being “all things to all people” by supporting Brexit and demonising immigrants.

I really don’t think you can demand or expect a left-wing Scottish utopia and, if you don’t see it, then try and suggest that a temporarily-not-Tory UK (which, as you’ve said, can never be free of all the things you fear an iScotland might be) is better.

The big failure of the argument that historically the Labour Party instituted left-wing policies (and given Starmer has attacked the left wing of Labour far more than he’s ever attacked the Tories, I don’t think we can expect much from him) is that we are currently living in extremist Toryland. That right there is the problem; we can see, do see, and have long seen that in the UK the Tories rebound and are always in power far longer than Labour ever are, whether Labour are wearing their leftist hats, or their rightist hats, or Starmer’s current “all things to all people” hat.

I often hear that the creation of the NHS, Welfare State, record health and education spending, Sure Start, Equality Act etc was just tinkering around the edges...I don't actually agree that it was, rather that that tinkering has improved the lives at different times of an awful lot of people.

You continually refer to supporting Brexit and demonising immigrants. Let me ask you, do you think that the Labour party should state today that they are going to reverse Brexit after the next election?  (just yes or no, not...aye but they are unprincipled charlatans pandering to bigots).

You will see in the last post that I don't 'demand' (don't think a single voters is ever in position to 'demand' anything, left wing utopia. Rather, as I said twice that the movement for Independence perhaps needs to open up again to a wider variety of views on what Scotland would look like (I think that might be called democracy....yes I know Labour are 'xenophobic democracy deniers).

The last Labour govt were in power for 13 years, winning 3 landslides. The Tories didn;t just bounce back from Blair. A lot of good (and a lot of bad, Iraq clearly the prime example) was achieved in that time.

What we have at the moment is a Tory govt which has lurched from scandal to scandal (not unusual for them)....what is different however, is that they are also now regarded as weak on the economy-always their trump card. Therefore I am not so sure that they are 'bouncing back' so quickly or easily this time.

The 'but Labour wouldn't implement ''any' of these policies in power......that surely applies to any political party.

 

[Guest Jedi]

6 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

How much of this list did Labour make any reasonable progress on during their 13 years in power?

2022 is clearly a different era from 1997-2010 in terms of green energy/green jobs, The aim for net zero was not in play, and the cost of living crisis was also not a factor.

During that period however, they did introduce a minimum wage, they did implement a windfall tax on privatised utilities (in fact after granting the B of E fiscal freedom, that was their next move), shortest hospital Waiting lists for 40 years (due to record spending on the NHS), The Good Friday Agreement which brought far more stability to Northern Ireland than before, Devolution for both Scotland and Wales, smaller class sizes across the board, Sure Start centres, built 132 new hospitals, youth unemployment fell by 75%, tax credits, the Human Rights Act, Civil Partnerships, paternity leave, lifted some 600,000 children out of poverty,  the New Deal got almost 2 million more people a job, Free Nursery places, record numbers of people from working class backgrounds went to university, banned fox hunting.

These were achievements by the government all of which improved people's lives. Clearly Tony Blair is remembered for Iraq, (which was an outrageously bad policy), but you also have to look at the govt as a whole,

 

[HTG]

The point surely is that an independent Scotland will get the government it votes for. If that's more right leaning than some socialists would wish for then that's the will of the people of Scotland. What definitely isn't the will of the people of Scotland is more Tory government. 

The reason so many of us can't vote Labour is because they're quite happy to expose us to something we absolutely don't want because that's what people in another country have voted for. I'm no longer prepared to vote for a party like that - particularly as they've accepted separation from the EU as a done deal, won't acknowledge Scotland's right to choose and fight the SNP with far greater vigour than they fight the Tories in Scotland. These are massive issues and the rest of the policy argument pales into insignificance compared to these. Also, Labour in Scotland are content to slaughter the Scottish Govt on stuff like health when they know that Scotland is performing better than rUK and they know that the Scottish budget is determined by another country. 

Most of us are ex-Labour voters. We'll never go back to them for as long as Labour is in step with the Tories on the biggest issues. 

[Guest Jedi]

I still wonder about the 'get the government we vote for' in an independent Scotland, in terms of it always being sold as 'you can vote for anyone you like, its just about getting Independence'. This is true. However I still don't see the SNP being shifted from power in an Independent Scotland for a very long time. Therefore it will be 'their' vision of Independence (and it wont be radical) and remember the Bank of England still calls the shots, which is implemented for that long time, not the Greens, not Labour, not the Tories etc.

They are at least being honest about the time it will take to rejoin the EU (a minimum of 10 years according to, yes, that man again, Andrew Wilson). 10 years to get the deficit down to below 3% in order to meet the terms of the EU acquis. Yes, Labour are currently pandering to the red wall to make Brexit work, but a 2nd term Lab govt could return the UK to the EU.

I long ago accepted that half the electorate of Scotland will never vote Labour due to their working with the Tories in 2014. The same never seems to apply to the Lib Dems who did the same, and also now 'accept' Brexit as well mind you. 

That half of the electorate under  the current system, as said will keep the SNP in power for many elections to come in an Independent Scotland. I fear that much as they are happy with that arrangement, that in any country a lack of opposition (in numbers) is never a good thing, as it allows (any) govt to become stale, as they aren't properly held to account (whether they are doing well or not)

It has been the nature of Scottish politics that, since the 1950s, 2 parties have now completely dominated the landscape, Lab from the 50s/60s until 2010, and now the SNP stretching into the future.

That of course returns to the 'but we don't vote for the Tories and they run the UK'. Yes, don't disagree that getting the govt you vote for yourself is always better, all be it, the election is conducted in a GE across the whole of the UK, and Wales and Northern Ireland (though different don't generally put Tories in either), but a long time to come with the SNP, without real opposition?...

Edited October 10, 2022 by Jedi

[Guest Jedi]

How do folk view the Lib Dems policy position to 'make Brexit work' incidentally? This being a party, which in 2019 campaigned to reverse the decision.

So, that leaves the SNP as the only current (back in the EU)....yes, but 'maybe' in 10 years time, or more.

[Antlion]

33 minutes ago, Jedi said:

I often hear that the creation of the NHS, Welfare State, record health and education spending, Sure Start, Equality Act etc was just tinkering around the edges...I don't actually agree that it was, rather that that tinkering has improved the lives at different times of an awful lot of people.

You continually refer to supporting Brexit and demonising immigrants. Let me ask you, do you think that the Labour party should state today that they are going to reverse Brexit after the next election?  (just yes or no, not...aye but they are unprincipled charlatans pandering to bigots).

You will see in the last post that I don't 'demand' (don't think a single voters is ever in position to 'demand' anything, left wing utopia. Rather, as I said twice that the movement for Independence perhaps needs to open up again to a wider variety of views on what Scotland would look like (I think that might be called democracy....yes I know Labour are 'xenophobic democracy deniers).

The last Labour govt were in power for 13 years, winning 3 landslides. The Tories didn;t just bounce back from Blair. A lot of good (and a lot of bad, Iraq clearly the prime example) was achieved in that time.

What we have at the moment is a Tory govt which has lurched from scandal to scandal (not unusual for them)....what is different however, is that they are also now regarded as weak on the economy-always their trump card. Therefore I am not so sure that they are 'bouncing back' so quickly or easily this time.

The 'but Labour wouldn't implement ''any' of these policies in power......that surely applies to any political party.

 

It was you who introduced the phrase “tinkering around the edges”. Own it, and decide whether it’s enough or not, because if it is, then it’s good enough for the SNP and an independent Scotland as much as it is for Labour and the UK (as you’ve suggested that this is all they can do, it being “mighty hard” to wrest the keys of power from bankers and big business that you note have already been given away by the UK).

I do keep continually referring to Brexit and the demonising of immigrants - and will keep doing so as long as it’s the direction of the UK and its Punch and Judy parties. Do I think Labour should stand on reversing Brexit? Yes. They should commit to a referendum on rejoining. They were happy enough to argue that Brexit would be a unsalvageable disaster before 2016. They should have the courage of their convictions in persuading the dwindling minority of Brexit extremists (if polls are to be believed) rather than pulling a Tory and going great guns on “making Brexit work”.

I actually agree that there should be a range of views on how an independent Scotland should look, to be chosen by voters once we are moving towards independence. Just as there should be a range of views on how the UK should look. Yet Labour especially have been keen on shutting this down, attacking the left and, again, desperately chasing Tory votes on issues like Brexit isolationism and putting up borders.

History puts you in the wrong on this issue. Labour have been in power 30 years since 1945. The Tories have been in power 48 years. During this time we’ve heard they’re “finished” before. If you think a thick twat like Truss will finish them, when they were polling ahead even just a few months ago, you’re wrong.

Of course the potential to not implement policies exists for any party. Labour are notorious for it (House of Lords reform, for example; not only did they ignore it, but they merrily joined the Tories in abusing the system, so that it’s the disgusting affront to democracy it is today). It has nothing to do with Scottish independence or a predilection for the UK. Whether Sir Keir implements leftist policies or not, he’s still also endorsing rightist ones. And, as above, history shows us that we can expect a Tory revival to come back harder.

[Antlion]

6 minutes ago, Jedi said:

I still wonder about the 'get the government we vote for' in an independent Scotland, in terms of it always being sold as 'you can vote for anyone you like, its just about getting Independence'. This is true. However I still don't see the SNP being shifted from power in an Independent Scotland for a very long time. Therefore it will be 'their' vision of Independence (and it wont be radical) and remember the Bank of England still calls the shots, which is implemented for that long time, not the Greens, not Labour, not the Tories etc.

They are at least being honest about the time it will take to rejoin the EU (a minimum of 10 years according to, yes, that man again, Andrew Wilson). 10 years to get the deficit down to below 3% in order to meet the terms of the EU acquis. Yes, Labour are currently pandering to the red wall to make Brexit work, but a 2nd term Lab govt could return the UK to the EU.

 

Funny how you seem to think that a future independent Scotland will be a dreadful SNP hellhole, whilst, on the basis of absolutely no evidence whatsoever and in the face of heaps of evidence to the contrary, you expect us to believe in a utopian UK (in which the Bank of England calls the shots, but apparently that’s ok) rejoining the EU under a born-again Labour Party. Excuse me while I piss myself.

If, in an independent Scotland, the SNP remain in power, that will be on us. It’s called democracy. I can say for sure they wouldn’t get my vote, but I’d accept if they won.

[Antlion]

10 minutes ago, Jedi said:

How do folk view the Lib Dems policy position to 'make Brexit work' incidentally? This being a party, which in 2019 campaigned to reverse the decision.

So, that leaves the SNP as the only current (back in the EU)....yes, but 'maybe' in 10 years time, or more.

No one votes for, cares about, or thinks about the Lib Dems. They’re nothing, although they have showed their “true nasty party” credentials via the likes of Alistair Carmichael in recent years.

I’ll take rejoining the EU after 10 years (with short term EFTA membership) over making Brexit work (or fantasy projections from someone on a forum about Labour u-turning on their vocal Brexit support) any day of the week.

[Guest Jedi]

A couple of posts back I listed the legislation enacted by a Labour govt between 1997-2010. Did any of it improve any lives?

When Blair was elected as leader in 1994 we heard a lot about shutting down the left, he's just a Tory, they will never implement any of these proposals (funny how these things always go in cycles)...and yet that list of policies were all passed into law by that same govt after setting them out in their manifestos 

Yes the Tories got back in (eventually) due largely to a global financial crash and the right wing press demolition of Gordon Brown, but they needed the Liberals (the Liberals!) to do so.

In a UK wide election where constitutences are contested across 4 countries is it not also 'democracy' if the Tories are elected? They did win the most seats after all. Same as Brexit was a UK wide election..I was furious at the result and yes, also Scotland voting to remain and being taken out, but it was still a UK wide election.

So we get a long term SNPland post Independence..that's democracy as well (just the same as the other 2 examples). Given that in 15 years in power they have enacted one redistributive policy (proceeds of crime bill) not holding my breath for largese in future for.most people.

[Antlion]

15 minutes ago, Jedi said:

A couple of posts back I listed the legislation enacted by a Labour govt between 1997-2010. Did any of it improve any lives?

When Blair was elected as leader in 1994 we heard a lot about shutting down the left, he's just a Tory, they will never implement any of these proposals (funny how these things always go in cycles)...and yet that list of policies were all passed into law by that same govt after setting them out in their manifestos 

Yes the Tories got back in (eventually) due largely to a global financial crash and the right wing press demolition of Gordon Brown, but they needed the Liberals (the Liberals!) to do so.

In a UK wide election where constitutences are contested across 4 countries is it not also 'democracy' if the Tories are elected? They did win the most seats after all. Same as Brexit was a UK wide election..I was furious at the result and yes, also Scotland voting to remain and being taken out, but it was still a UK wide election.

So we get a long term SNPland post Independence..that's democracy as well (just the same as the other 2 examples). Given that in 15 years in power they have enacted one redistributive policy (proceeds of crime bill) not holding my breath for largese in future for.most people.

Yes, I’m sure some policies did improve lives, as plenty of SNP policies (however much you want to pretend they don’t exist) have improved lives. Why you give a gold star to Labour and attack the SNP on this I’m not sure. 

If you are claiming that Labour only lost due to a global financial crash and media attacks on Gordon Brown (for being a Scot as I recall - which was odd when being an absolute p***k might have served), then I’m sorry to present you with the unpleasant reality that global financial crashes and media attacks on Labour leaders are going nowhere. So, if these were the reasons Labour lost (rather than people voting Tory) then we can look forward to people voting Tory again.

Indeed, the Tories getting in is democracy UK-style. Because in UK elections, there’s no such thing as a Scottish national voice (or any other national voice other than UKish, which is dominated by English constituencies as the largest population centres). That’s kind of the point of independence. Ditto for Brexit - Scotland is not recognised as a nation but as a bit of the UK which has no independent say on its constitutional future in or out of the EU, but only a tiny minority one. Again, that’s the point of independence.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Antlion

[btb]

The main problem for the SNP is that it can't breach the 50% barrier and it is worrying that even after the mess Truss has made this still seems to be the case - that Independence is the big issue in Scotland and that dissatisfaction with the Tories has merely led to a rearrangement of chairs on the Unionist side.

If these figures were repeated at elections I would still expect the SNP to get a landslide in terms of MPs at Westminster and in and around the overall majority at Holyrood but still short of a majority in an Independence referendum - depressing thoughts for a Nationalist like me.

[williemillersmoustache]

9 hours ago, Jedi said:

You continually refer to supporting Brexit and demonising immigrants. Let me ask you, do you think that the Labour party should state today that they are going to reverse Brexit after the next election?  (just yes or no, not...aye but they are unprincipled charlatans pandering to bigots).

Scrapping the abberation of the TCA which Labour voted for en masse (and demonstarbly is a disaster) and fInding a way to leave the European Unon that didn't horsefuck our ecomomy and simply set aside devolution and the 1, 2, 3 4 referendums that the people in devolved nations endorsed, isn't "reversing brexit."   That is straight up the position and language of the very worst of the Vote Leave zoomers like Lilico, Baker, the ERG and Farage. 

You might argue that this it is simple political expediency for Labour to have turned its coat so fully but, it does have consequences. It does mean that as far as Scotland is concerned they go can go f**k themselves.  Who was it that claimed to "be the party of devolution" again? Not these half-tory's that think devolved consent is something that can and should be casually set aside if a large minority of English votes might be at risk? Surely not. 

This is what I mean about arguing in bad faith. 

As for immigration you don't even need the moral case (although of course it is there) becasue the practical, economic case is screaming so loudly that we have enormous shortages at al levels. But there are people, who Labour helped to convince over the last 2 decades (see Broon embarrassing himself by apologising to a bigot) who think we don't need people to come here and those that do are stealing the NHS and their kids music lessons. And Labour do not have the testicular fortitude or backbone to make the argument. Which is not just amoral, not just cowardice, not just unspeakably dishonest (although it is very much those things too). It is directly, right now, as we speak harming businesses, harming the economy and making us look like c***s on the world stage, and driving away the people we desperately need to come here and make these stupid, fucked up racist, chronically ill served and horrendously badly governened misereable little collection of islands their home.

I hate this more even than Brexit. I fucking despise the casual disregard for humanity. I abhor and piss all over those that cannot see the harm this does and shrug their shoulders at this unbelievably stupid, mean, myopic dog shit attitude to immigartion. It rips my knitting to shreds to have the Scotland I want to live in viewed from the outside through the prism of the xenophobic, byzantine and deliberately cruel Tory policy towards migrants, while Labour stand back and fucking well clap. 

At the risk of repeating myself. A plague on both your houses. 

Edited October 11, 2022 by williemillersmoustache

[Granny Danger]

7 hours ago, Jedi said:

A couple of posts back I listed the legislation enacted by a Labour govt between 1997-2010. Did any of it improve any lives?

When Blair was elected as leader in 1994 we heard a lot about shutting down the left, he's just a Tory, they will never implement any of these proposals (funny how these things always go in cycles)...and yet that list of policies were all passed into law by that same govt after setting them out in their manifestos 

Yes the Tories got back in (eventually) due largely to a global financial crash and the right wing press demolition of Gordon Brown, but they needed the Liberals (the Liberals!) to do so.

In a UK wide election where constitutences are contested across 4 countries is it not also 'democracy' if the Tories are elected? They did win the most seats after all. Same as Brexit was a UK wide election..I was furious at the result and yes, also Scotland voting to remain and being taken out, but it was still a UK wide election.

So we get a long term SNPland post Independence..that's democracy as well (just the same as the other 2 examples). Given that in 15 years in power they have enacted one redistributive policy (proceeds of crime bill) not holding my breath for largese in future for.most people.

Imagine using a man who supported an illegal war then went on to make millions of pounds for himself and his family as an inspiration for voting Labour!

 

[TheScarf]

1 hour ago, btb said:

The main problem for the SNP is that it can't breach the 50% barrier and it is worrying that even after the mess Truss has made this still seems to be the case - that Independence is the big issue in Scotland and that dissatisfaction with the Tories has merely led to a rearrangement of chairs on the Unionist side.

If these figures were repeated at elections I would still expect the SNP to get a landslide in terms of MPs at Westminster and in and around the overall majority at Holyrood but still short of a majority in an Independence referendum - depressing thoughts for a Nationalist like me.

Surely it’s if the SNP, Greens and Alba together breach the 50% barrier in MPs etc?

[btb]

1 hour ago, TheScarf said:

Surely it’s if the SNP, Greens and Alba together breach the 50% barrier in MPs etc?

As far as I'm aware the SNP position is still that a second referendum is required, my point is that after 3 years of BJs antics followed by Truss's disastrous start the polls have not shown any transfer from the Cons/Lab/Lib-Dem camp to the SNP/Greens merely a change in the breakdown of the Unionist vote.

Scottish Voting Intention: Tories see worst performance since October 2014 | YouGov

There was no figure for Independance but for Westminster the figure for SNP/Green was 48% against 50% for the Unionist alliance and Holyrood marginally in the other direction with 51% vs 47%, - existing voter's views on Independance are set in stone and it'll take a long time for demographic change to make any difference.

*****************************

My thoughts on the shift from ScotCons to ScotLab shown in the above polling is that ScotCons voters are very unlikely to go pro-Indy so will move to ScotLab or maybe the Scottish Lib-Dems in the fringe constituencies where they still poll well whereas ScotLab voters who might be more inclined to go pro-Indy prefer to take the view that Labour can win a Westminster GE so are sticking for the present.

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by btb

[oneteaminglasgow]

9 hours ago, Jedi said:

How do folk view the Lib Dems policy position to 'make Brexit work' incidentally? This being a party, which in 2019 campaigned to reverse the decision.

So, that leaves the SNP as the only current (back in the EU)....yes, but 'maybe' in 10 years time, or more.

I’d imagine that, like with everything else, no one really cares about what the Lib Dems have to say on it. 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

How do folk view the Lib Dems policy position to 'make Brexit work' incidentally? This being a party, which in 2019 campaigned to reverse the decision.
So, that leaves the SNP as the only current (back in the EU)....yes, but 'maybe' in 10 years time, or more.

The Fib Dems are political opportunists - we saw with Cameron's coalition that their principles went out the window.

In any case, given their current polling, they are an irrelevance.