Junior football, what is the future?

[Hillonearth]

16 minutes ago, Jerry Macguire said:

How's that pitch working out for you now?

For someone with a life its good to see you found the time to dig out one of my old posts.

The Ashfield thing you keep raising. My understanding was the pitch was too small and it would have required significant investment to meet SFA criteria also worth mentioning we never actually played there, ever. Also the points raised about the pitch at lochburn were valid and at no point ever did I suggest that was the only reason for our parting of the waves. Sorry ways.

But any opportunity to have a rant about BSC is too good to miss eh?

It's been working out just fine until the last month or so when it went tits up along with virtually every other grass surface in the Scottish nonleague system. Makes all the difference when you're able to get it worked on in the close season, but cheers for asking.

I had the feeling - correct as it happens - that you were the one who'd done the calling out initially - so I dug out that particular nugget, but I've resisted the temptation to statistically analyse the content of your posts over the last calendar year thus far though.

The "Ashfield thing" didn't directly concern my club, so I'd be going on hearsay if I repeated the details I'd heard second hand as I can't be sure of their provenance. I believe it's a matter of record though that a deal was agreed to play there for three years but a ball was never actually kicked in anger. ..

http://slfl.co.uk/bsc-glasgow-introduction/

There appears to be only one of us ranting incidentally at the moment. I don't think it's me...

[itzdrk]

That proposal is basically what i suggested should happen a few years ago, there is no reason the west juniors have to lose their structure if they join.  They have a west region that can just be stuck on as is at tier 6 right now.  

I think at that time the main problems with my idea was firstly that it was my suggestion  but also some didn't like the idea of their bigger clubs not just going straight into the LL.  I haven't read anyone saying that though so we may have all moved forward a bit. 

[Hillonearth]

1 minute ago, itzdrk said:

That proposal is basically what i suggested should happen a few years ago, there is no reason the west juniors have to lose their structure if they join.  They have a west region that can just be stuck on as is at tier 6 right now.  

I think at that time the main problems with my idea was firstly that it was my suggestion  but also some didn't like the idea of their bigger clubs not just going straight into the LL.  I haven't read anyone saying that though so we may have all moved forward a bit. 

I think the main sticking point previously was the notion that large clubs - in nonleague terms obviously - such as Talbot, Beith or Pollok be forced to play through the SoS which although nominally senior is a much lower standard and probably equates to the lower end of the district leagues.

A West of Scotland league would hopefully obviate this.

[itzdrk]

1 minute ago, Hillonearth said:

I think the main sticking point previously was the notion that large clubs - in nonleague terms obviously - such as Talbot, Beith or Pollok be forced to play through the SoS which although nominally senior is a much lower standard and probably equates to the lower end of the district leagues.

A West of Scotland league would hopefully obviate this.

Yeah i wasn't really for that myself.  

The way it would be structured would be in nice stepping stones up to playing national football as well for whoever does.  

Regional > semi national > national.  

Would need a solution for the east and north  though, whether that means the east & north  filters into/below the EOS/Highland and we could have something close to being right  throughout the non-amateur game, then 10/15 years when everyone has started to find their level im sure things will look different to just now, with some clubs likely being surprises (see Montrose finally getting their act together now the prospect of playing in the Highland League is real rather than battling with the Shire to not be the worst in the country).  

[Sergeant Wilson]

8 hours ago, Jerry Macguire said:

How's that pitch working out for you now?

For someone with a life its good to see you found the time to dig out one of my old posts.

The Ashfield thing you keep raising. My understanding was the pitch was too small and it would have required significant investment to meet SFA criteria also worth mentioning we never actually played there, ever. Also the points raised about the pitch at lochburn were valid and at no point ever did I suggest that was the only reason for our parting of the waves. Sorry ways.

But any opportunity to have a rant about BSC is too good to miss eh?

Did it come as a surprise to you the Maryhill is wet and Ashfield is small? You'll be telling me next that Shotts is cold.

[Hillonearth]

33 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Did it come as a surprise to you the Maryhill is wet and Ashfield is small? You'll be telling me next that Shotts is cold.

Aye, our late Victorian chums saw fit to build a ground adjacent to a canal in a former quarry that featured a sunken pitch!

In other breaking news, Beith's got a slope, Carluke's windy and Edusport are French....

[LongTimeLurker]

On 26/12/2017 at 15:35, Burnie_man said:

So where exactly is this at?  I cant see Colt teams entering at HL and LL Level, therefore it has to be the level below which presumably would be the WoSFL becoming reality.

Guess if anybody is in the know on here they've been told to keep it under wraps. As things stand there's nothing stopping a Colt team playing in the EoS or SoS, but they can't get promoted any higher from there. Hibs operated a team like that in the EoS a few years back, so there is even a recent precedent. The end game though appears to be eventual entry into the SPFL through promotion where the Old Firm are concerned. Given that appears to be about as welcome as an Ebola outbreak among the followers of League One and Two clubs, the full-time clubs probably need the nonleague full members on board when rule changes come to a vote at SFA level, so some wider revamp of tiers 5 and 6 and cash injection might be on the cards.   

Edited December 27, 2017 by LongTimeLurker

[Burnie_man]

10 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Guess if anybody is in the know on here they've been told to keep it under wraps. As things stand there's nothing stopping a Colt team playing in the EoS or SoS, but they can't get promoted any higher from there. Hibs operated a team like that in the EoS a few years back, so there is even a recent precedent. The end game though appears to be eventual entry into the SPFL through promotion where the Old Firm are concerned. Given that appears to be about as welcome as an Ebola outbreak among the followers of League One and Two clubs, the full-time clubs probably need the nonleague full members on board when rule changes come to a vote at SFA level, so some wider revamp of tiers 5 and 6 and cash injection might be on the cards.   

I’d be amazed if the SFA had even thought that far in advance to be honest.  A WoSFL is a must if they are to bring in OF Colt teams, the league would be a Trojan horse to get these teams into the Pyramid without engaging in battle with LL members to allow them straight into that league.  I can’t see any other club initially fielding Colt teams due to the expense involved, although the EoSFL is there for the Edinburgh teams should they be interested.

That said if the SFA are thinking that far ahead, and I have my doubts, surely they would need to start talking to Junior clubs in the West as without them, you are struggling to create a viable WoSFL.

[tell_me_more]

14 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I’d be amazed if the SFA had even thought that far in advance to be honest.  A WoSFL is a must if they are to bring in OF Colt teams, the league would be a Trojan horse to get these teams into the Pyramid without engaging in battle with LL members to allow them straight into that league.  I can’t see any other club initially fielding Colt teams due to the expense involved, although the EoSFL is there for the Edinburgh teams should they be interested.

That said if the SFA are thinking that far ahead, and I have my doubts, surely they would need to start talking to Junior clubs in the West as without them, you are struggling to create a viable WoSFL.

So if you were in their position (SFA) and were trying to sell the pyramid system to long established junior clubs in Ayrshire /  Glasgow area how would you go about it? Outline the benefits that they are currently missing out on and why it would be better for the juniors to abandon their traditions and set up. 

[parsforlife]

So if you were in their position (SFA) and were trying to sell the pyramid system to long established junior clubs in Ayrshire /  Glasgow area how would you go about it? Outline the benefits that they are currently missing out on and why it would be better for the juniors to abandon their traditions and set up. 

What traditions would they be abandoning?

[RabidAl]

34 minutes ago, tell_me_more said:

So if you were in their position (SFA) and were trying to sell the pyramid system to long established junior clubs in Ayrshire /  Glasgow area how would you go about it? Outline the benefits that they are currently missing out on and why it would be better for the juniors to abandon their traditions and set up. 

What would they have to abandon?  Couldn't they just move the west juniors wholesale into a West of Scotland League, with promotion to the LL only coming for clubs that are licenced and who win the top tier of the West (as is the case in the SoS and EoS), and who also make it though a play off with EoS & SoS winners?

[Dipple burn]

The only way I think you could introduce the West Juniors into the pyramid is to set up a league below the LL consisting of the top Junior clubs in the West. No Junior club wants to join the SOL and this is where the SFA want you to start.  At the moment this is all the SFA have to offer but If the Talbot had been offered the chance to join a better standard of league  after getting Beechwood up to certificate stage it might have been a better carrot than being told "you want your ground certificate then its the SOL for you".

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, tell_me_more said:

So if you were in their position (SFA) and were trying to sell the pyramid system to long established junior clubs in Ayrshire /  Glasgow area how would you go about it? Outline the benefits that they are currently missing out on and why it would be better for the juniors to abandon their traditions and set up. 

As others have said, what are you abandoning that is an actual benefit to Junior clubs? for 90% of clubs, not a lot will change except there is no glass ceiling to progression, you can become Licenced and participate in the Scottish Cup, access increased funding, access better grant opportunities, and perhaps benefit from a more professional approach to the game.   All that, plus chances are that you'll still be playing the same clubs anyway in most of your games.

[tell_me_more]

44 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

As others have said, what are you abandoning that is an actual benefit to Junior clubs? for 90% of clubs, not a lot will change except there is no glass ceiling to progression, you can become Licenced and participate in the Scottish Cup, access increased funding, access better grant opportunities, and perhaps benefit from a more professional approach to the game.   All that, plus chances are that you'll still be playing the same clubs anyway in most of your games.

The traditions of playing in local cups and leagues under the junior format has been built up over many years is one of the things that makes it unique and these do mean quite a bit to junior supporters that have followed their team for years, ( Like it lump it or laugh it, thats the way it is.). So you are giving up your local tournaments and national tournament that does generate quite a bit of interest, e.g Glenafton had ten times the amount of supporters at last years final than they did at Livingston. 

Can you justify your increased funding and better grant opportunites claim? 
Participating in the big Scottish, fair enough but the cash that it pays out just now would be massively diluted if you throw in say 100 + Junior teams. The first few rounds would be wiped out for payouts. 
More and more clubs and organisations are after grant funding than ever, there's less to go round than ever, charities / charitable organisations or groups working together are more likely to get funding than individual teams as there is more community benefit, ( See the Cumnock model) that would not change radically  just because you are licensed although it would contribute.

More professional approach to the game, no going to debate that one.

There should be an opportunity for the best of the juniors to progress if they wish via playoffs, I'm still no convinced it would benefit the whole set up moving.

 

Edited December 28, 2017 by tell_me_more
typo

[Goalie Hamish]

What are the benefits of Junior fitba remaining isolated forever?  list them.

[parsforlife]

The traditions of playing in local cups and leagues
 

And why do these need to disappear ?

[Nikos K]

It's far easier for glenafton fans to travel en masse to rugby park than it is to Livingston I was at the final and there was babies there as well that wouldn't have been taken east . I for one can't see what would want any forward thinking junior club to remain in a league where there is no chance of advancement to a higher level . Clubs like Renfrew , Largs, Rossvale, clydebank and even yoker who will have the set up to do so should seriously consider moving to a WoS league in the future. The west region secretary and his recent disregard for the constitutional rules should be a perfect example of why the juniors is never moving forward to a standard the clubs deserve. Any of the west premier clubs that are not interested in a WoS league show no ambition at all for their clubs future . 

[theshed]

I'm liking the idea of a west of Scotland junior league in a pyramid structure but the one huge factor is no Scottish junior cup , it is a massive factor for me , if I had to choose between the Scottish senior and it's potential money and the junior cup that we have won and can win again then I'm thinking of the latter , it's not to be underestimated and would leave a huge hole .

[Burnie_man]

44 minutes ago, tell_me_more said:

The traditions of playing in local cups and leagues under the junior format has been built up over many years is one of the things that makes it unique and these do mean quite a bit to junior supporters that have followed their team for years, ( Like it lump it or laugh it, thats the way it is.). So you are giving up your local tournaments and national tournament that does generate quite a bit of interest, e.g Glenafton had ten times the amount of supporters at last years final than they did at Livingston. 

Can you justify your increased funding and better grant opportunites claim? 
Participating in the big Scottish, fair enough but the cash that it pays out just now would be massively diluted if you throw in say 100 + Junior teams. The first few rounds would be wiped out for payouts. 
More and more clubs and organisations are after grant funding than ever, there's less to go round than ever, charities / charitable organisations or groups working together are more likely to get funding than individual teams as there is more community benefit, ( See the Cumnock model) that would not change radically  just because you are licensed although it would contribute.

More professional approach to the game, no going to debate that one.

There should be an opportunity for the best of the juniors to progress if they wish via playoffs, I'm still no convinced it would benefit the whole set up moving.

 

What is “Junior format” exactly and you do realise that clubs in the EoSFL and SoSFL also play local cups and local leagues, what is so different from that compared to Junior football, what is unique?

There will still be a national non-league cup like the Junior Cup if the Juniors joined the Pyramid, no reason to abandon it.

Funding, well reading this thread will tell you about payments from the SFA, and also the fact that the Scottish Football Partnership will provide larger grant funding to clubs who are applying for a Licence(or are already Licenced) than those who are not, again read their website and speak to them. Speak to Kelty Hearts as well.

Scottish Cup sponsorship money, well I don’t think there’s going to be 100 Licenced Junior clubs anytime soon, but if there is, they will still receive considerably more than what they do from the SJFA for the Junior Cup, which is zero unless you get to the Semi’s, in fact chances are it costs you money.

A more professional approach to the game is obvious from the shambles we currently endure, just look at the West Region fixtures thread.

So as others have asked, what are the benefits of remaining separate from the rest of the Scottish game, benefits that should mean we don’t join a Pyramid?

[Nikos K]

No disrespect shed but you've it once in 80 years where as you would receive money from senior Scottish every year which can only improve your club and of course the chance of a big draw in the senior cup as opposed to say Talbot again or one of the other west premier clubs for the umpteenth time . I know what I would prefer.