Junior football, what is the future?

[gaz5]

It suggests the EoS representative at that meeting was viewed by Ian Maxwell as having went along with something he didn't think he was agreeing to as Superbigal describes above probably because there was confusion between the different parties over how the HL:LL boundary entered the equation. What's truly comic from the minutes that appeared on here is that Ian Maxwell doesn't seem to have realised that the EoS could effectively veto it through having to agree with changes to the LL promotion playoff. The question that remains unclear is if Ian Maxwell was played by Tom Johnston, who understood full well all along that the EoS would do that and could then be blamed for the juniors not getting in, or alternatively whether Tom Johnston is so clueless about the procedures after many years of SFA involvement that he really thought there was something called a "board directive" that could force everything through.

To put a bit more context around the issue, at the EoS meeting RP's opening gambit to the room included the statement "your objection to the Juniors joining the pyramid".

He and IM seemed to be under the impression that the EoS and LL were "blocking" access for "the juniors".

He was of course quickly set straight, that it was nothing to do with the juniors, that the West were welcome as a unit and the East junior clubs welcome to join the EoS as the pre-existing feeder, in the same way any amateur teams could and the and that 26 already had.

Now, where they got the opinion that the objections to a poorly thought out proposal were centred purely around stopping the juniors coming into the pyramid is anyone's guess (yes, that is sarcasm), particularly with more than half of the room former Juniors who had made the switch through the already available league.

My view is that it became clear to them only during that discussion that they had been sold a pig in a poke with regards the problem.

The issue is not, and never had been about "the juniors". It has always been about an overlapping geographical league in the East, containing non LL region clubs, regardless of whether that is the ERSJFA or the LEAFA.

I can't speak for what happened at PWG meetings, but as far as the EoS are concerned the feedback from the league and association has been consistent dating back to a question asked at our very first meeting in early 2018, prior to the junior plan being issued. The position has always been that there is already a feeder league in the East.

Misunderstanding/misrepresentation of the agreement reached in the PWG, in terms of probability, is far more likely for me than the EoS telling the PWG one thing and their members another for over a year. They simply aren't an organisation who operate that way.

[LongTimeLurker]

5 hours ago, G4Mac said:

Yeah and if you can't tell sarcasm from the tone of good old TJ part them it is truly wasted 8-). Let me be clear TJ fed a line to both IM and RP who bought it without checking its validity....

Where are you even going with this? If IM and RP bought the line they were being fed where is the "falsity" in stating that the SFA in the shape of IM and RP were siding with the SJFA's posture rather than that of the EoS? You are all over the place.

[Guest]

Where are you even going with this? If IM and RP bought the line they were being fed where is the "falsity" in stating that the SFA in the shape of IM and RP were siding with the SJFA's posture rather than that of the EoS? You are all over the place.

The falsity arose whn TJ fed the line to the clubs and the sfa. No one did their due diligence, this doesn't make the statement regarding the sfa siding with the sjfa any more true. I say this as it is not clear, at any stage in the process, that the sfa did in fact side with the sjfa or anyone else for that matter. (as far as I am aware)

 

As stated above, there has never been an objection to the juniors coming in. The west is and always will be shootie in. The east joins the eos. Those above the boundary go north (sadly).

 

The EOS and LL have at no point blocked the juniors. The SFA have never came out and guaranteed any association anything, far less backed or sided with anyone. TJ played his games and lost, meaning that his member clubs are still no further forward almost a year down the line.

 

To be fair maybe I'm not clearly getting over what I am saying and asking. If I have missed the sfa statement where they commit to backing the juniors at tier 6 in the pyramid then I will hold my hands up and move on. Where do I find it?

[LongTimeLurker]

Will ignore future follow ups from you. It's patently absurd to suggest that the EoS and LL have at no point blocked the juniors.

[Gimme]

Will ignore future follow ups from you. It's patently absurd to suggest that the EoS and LL have at no point blocked the juniors.

They haven't, they've simply vetoed the absurdly ridiculous proposal that was put forward and offered a workable alternative which the SJFA, for reasons unknown, has decided doesn't suit their agenda.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

17 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

 I'd therefore advise not coming on and calling people's opinions "nonsense", people who have been in and around this issue for years at club level, then following it up by calling them "ignorant" and "blinkered".

I'd take a step back mate, honestly. 

no thanks, honestly

In and out of the issue for years lol, and your the only one, omg. SO I suppose this problem has just happened to the rest of us including me recently.

The nonsense is in regarding to adding more leagues creating more confusion/problems that we have now that will snowball, its was not meant as directied at you but outwith that idea as right now the whole situation with the junior teams, as a whole, joining is a shambles with them joining , not joining, and the two WRJFA and the ERJFA both wanting to go as one so they can still be incontrol and continue in their jobs. etc... and you want to confound the pyramid system with adding more separate Associations / leagues.  If you resort to that problem then you may as well do the rest of Scotland and sort all the areas, similar to the way grassroots football is organised. If you have the problem for Tay clubs, do you honestly think that problem doesn't lie anywhere else.  What About Kello Rovers in Kirkconnel or Girvan, What is best for them, the South of Scotland or if a new WOS is appointed, do they go into that or will you just make a Ayrshire West section to Accommodate those teams.  (by the way I don't know both those teams views if they would want to be included into a new WOS of join the SOS, they were added to show the boundary problem is just not related to Tay clubs).  If you try and create another league for the North East teams then you are creating a bigger problem as there are areas throughout Scotland that I'm sure will have those problems and thus, you would have to do the same for them.  Right now this has been going on for a while to get organized in the simplest form and easiest for everyone and there been problems and bickering all over the place for different reasons and different area.
You've either got to decide to stay in the current form and not add anymore leagues into tier 6, obviously except the WOS which I think everyone is in favour of and then any other associations, leagues that join will fall into one of those associations, EOS, WOS or SOS. If you add in a North West or anything like that then you may as well sort the whole system out similarly which will take years as there will be more problems of bickering than we have now.

 

The ignorant and blinkered is factually correct in regards to your viewpoint of me, stating that someone hasn't got a clue geographical of the league.  You have not got a clue about most people on here and neither do I and I don't make suppositions about them, thinking he's just a poster who posts for the sake of it. I've been involved in football playing and working in it for a long time, youth, amateur then junior both the Old central and Ayrshire and the East, coaching for a long time, even when playing in the junior ranks I was coaching.  Read it all back your now acting as if your viewpoint is the only viewpoint that works and you don't intend to listen to anyone else because you think your have been the only one immersed in it for years.

With your viewpoint all your doing is creating a bigger problem  and when making  its in more areas creating leagues here leagues there who goes where in a tier, theres best to have more people on here including me with viewpoints. Oh and I understand that particular viewpoint that I most definitely agree with has come up as a way of a solution for mainly the Tay problem boundary.

I am interested in they who pyramid system working for the improvement of Scottish football, not just in one area whether its the West, East, North or South. I have worked tirelessly, sometimes coaching 5 evenings week developing players for a higher level and then seeing coaches who are only interested in themselves and don't give a shit about the players or future of football and only interested in winning a daft dummy cup and you feel as if a lot of people who are involved in the pyramid system or juniors stay/go have ulterior motive being interested in their owns gains.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread
More Detail

[Black & Red Socks]

Will ignore future follow ups from you. It's patently absurd to suggest that the EoS and LL have at no point blocked the juniors.

The only patently absurd position here is the one you hold. Your constant misinterpreting of events that leads to your constant misrepresentation of these events is draining. You go on and on but provide little in the way of evidence to back up what are merely assertions built on your misinterpretations. There are people who were actually in the room when much of which you misinterpret was discussed and dismissed yet you refuse to accept what they say. Patently absurd.

 

The Juniors were not blocked by the EoSFL or the LL and this is quite simply a fact. The WRSJFA would have been in the pyramid now but for the SJFA leadership shackling their entry to the entry of the ERSJFA (note, not with the NRSJFA so no entire Junior entry was ever envisaged by the SJFA anyway). This too is fact. What was blocked was a parallel league in the East. Another fact. To view matters in any other way is patently absurd. You know this, I know this and, indeed, everyone reading this thread now knows this. Why does it have to be constantly repeated for you?

[Bestsinceslicebread]

2 minutes ago, Gimme said:

10 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Will ignore future follow ups from you. It's patently absurd to suggest that the EoS and LL have at no point blocked the juniors.

They haven't, they've simply vetoed the absurdly ridiculous proposal that was put forward and offered a workable alternative which the SJFA, for reasons unknown, has decided doesn't suit their agenda.

If I'm correct in thinking that they are not blocking the juniors joining the seniors/pyramid system but just blocking the idea that ERJFA coming in as a different senior association and which is level with the EOS at Tier 6.  Both the SOS and the EOS think that the ERJFA should just join into the EOS 

[Sidney Lumet]

no thanks, honestly
In and out of the issue for years lol, and your the only one, omg. SO I suppose this problem has just happened to the rest of us including me recently.
The nonsense is in regarding to adding more leagues creating more confusion/problems that we have now that will snowball, its was not meant as directied at you but outwith that idea as right now the whole situation with the junior teams, as a whole, joining is a shambles with them joining , not joining, and the two WRJFA and the ERJFA both wanting to go as one so they can still be incontrol and continue in their jobs. etc... and you want to confound the pyramid system with adding more separate Associations / leagues.  If you resort to that problem then you may as well do the rest of Scotland and sort all the areas, similar to the way grassroots football is organised. If you have the problem for Tay clubs, do you honestly think that problem doesn't lie anywhere else.  What About Kello Rovers in Kirkconnel or Girvan, What is best for them, the South of Scotland or if a new WOS is appointed, do they go into that or will you just make a Ayrshire West section to Accommodate those teams.  (by the way I don't know both those teams views if they would want to be included into a new WOS of join the SOS, they were added to show the boundary problem is just not related to Tay clubs).  If you try and create another league for the North East teams then you are creating a bigger problem as there are areas throughout Scotland that I'm sure will have those problems and thus, you would have to do the same for them.  Right now this has been going on for a while to get organized in the simplest form and easiest for everyone and there been problems and bickering all over the place for different reasons and different area.
You've either got to decide to stay in the current form and not add anymore leagues into tier 6, obviously except the WOS which I think everyone is in favour of and then any other associations, leagues that join will fall into one of those associations, EOS, WOS or SOS. If you add in a North West or anything like that then you may as well sort the whole system out similarly which will take years as there will be more problems of bickering than we have now.
 
The ignorant and blinkered is factually correct in regards to your viewpoint of me, stating that someone hasn't got a clue geographical of the league.  You have not got a clue about most people on here and neither do I and I don't make suppositions about them, thinking he's just a poster who posts for the sake of it. I've been involved in football playing and working in it for a long time, youth, amateur then junior both the Old central and Ayrshire and the East, coaching for a long time, even when playing in the junior ranks I was coaching.  Read it all back your now acting as if your viewpoint is the only viewpoint that works and you don't intend to listen to anyone else because you think your have been the only one immersed in it for years.
With your viewpoint all your doing is creating a bigger problem  and when making  its in more areas creating leagues here leagues there who goes where in a tier, theres best to have more people on here including me with viewpoints. Oh and I understand that particular viewpoint that I most definitely agree with has come up as a way of a solution for mainly the Tay problem boundary.

I am interested in they who pyramid system working for the improvement of Scottish football, not just in one area whether its the West, East, North or South. I have worked tirelessly, sometimes coaching 5 evenings week developing players for a higher level and then seeing coaches who are only interested in themselves and don't give a shit about the players or future of football and only interested in winning a daft dummy cup and you feel as if a lot of people who are involved in the pyramid system or juniors stay/go have ulterior motive being interested in their owns gains.

Boy oh boy, you don’t half ramble on incoherently. Honesty.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

3 minutes ago, Sidney Lumet said:

Boy oh boy, you don’t half ramble on incoherently. Honesty.

just put you comment about the post and don't make daft comments about someone you dislike or are jealous of or anything like that.
Too many people come into a post not to help and add to a debate positively but just to shit stir.  That is factual

Edited September 5, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Sidney Lumet]

just put you comment about the post and don't make daft comments about someone you dislike or are jealous of or anything like that. Too many people come into a post not to help and add to a debate positively but just to shit stir.  That is factual    

 

I beg your pardon? Where have I stated that I “dislike” you or I’m “jealous” of you? Dearie me.

 

I merely inferred that your posts are long winded and therefore difficult to understand. I stand by that and now don’t understand why you think this leads to me disliking you or being jealous of you. That’s some leap.

For the record (and if you search through my previous posts on the matter - not that you should really as it’s a tedious chore - you’ll easily confirm this) I think the West should be in in its entirety at Tier 6 and the East Juniors should have to join the EoSFL at the bottom level. In the North those Tayside teams north of the dividing line should join with the North Region Juniors to be a Highland League feeder. This is merely my opinion but seems the easiest to enact should there be a unanimous will to do so. Apparently there isn’t and this would appear to be driven by the Juniors wanting prevalence over everyone else.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

3 minutes ago, Sidney Lumet said:

I beg your pardon? Where have I stated that I “dislike” you or I’m “jealous” of you? Dearie me.

I merely inferred that your posts are long winded and therefore difficult to understand. I stand by that and now don’t understand why you think this leads to me disliking you or being jealous of you. That’s some leap.

They have to be detailed sometimes to spell it out for some people so that its not misinterpreted.
The last one was the comment of the person stating people like me have no idea of graphical areas of certain leagues and that we should not make comment when he is totally wrong.   To many people on this post just make condescending remarks about peoples posts without making anything concrete on their post, the benefits and or problems their ideas create or just put their own viewpoint idea on the post.

 

Edited September 5, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread

[LongTimeLurker]

26 minutes ago, Gimme said:

35 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Will ignore future follow ups from you. It's patently absurd to suggest that the EoS and LL have at no point blocked the juniors.

They haven't, they've simply vetoed...

You are directly contradicting yourself in the same sentence. By vetoing a change to the LL playoff format they blocked junior entry at that particular point in the proceedings, so it is patently absurd to state that at no point have they blocked the juniors. If something as simple as that in logic terms is contentious I can understand why the PWG meetings on this topic dragged on for months going over the same old ground.

[Burnie_man]

53 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

no thanks, honestly

In and out of the issue for years lol, and your the only one, omg. SO I suppose this problem has just happened to the rest of us including me recently.

The nonsense is in regarding to adding more leagues creating more confusion/problems that we have now that will snowball, its was not meant as directied at you but outwith that idea as right now the whole situation with the junior teams, as a whole, joining is a shambles with them joining , not joining, and the two WRJFA and the ERJFA both wanting to go as one so they can still be incontrol and continue in their jobs. etc... and you want to confound the pyramid system with adding more separate Associations / leagues.  If you resort to that problem then you may as well do the rest of Scotland and sort all the areas, similar to the way grassroots football is organised. If you have the problem for Tay clubs, do you honestly think that problem doesn't lie anywhere else.  What About Kello Rovers in Kirkconnel or Girvan, What is best for them, the South of Scotland or if a new WOS is appointed, do they go into that or will you just make a Ayrshire West section to Accommodate those teams.  (by the way I don't know both those teams views if they would want to be included into a new WOS of join the SOS, they were added to show the boundary problem is just not related to Tay clubs).  If you try and create another league for the North East teams then you are creating a bigger problem as there are areas throughout Scotland that I'm sure will have those problems and thus, you would have to do the same for them.  Right now this has been going on for a while to get organized in the simplest form and easiest for everyone and there been problems and bickering all over the place for different reasons and different area.
You've either got to decide to stay in the current form and not add anymore leagues into tier 6, obviously except the WOS which I think everyone is in favour of and then any other associations, leagues that join will fall into one of those associations, EOS, WOS or SOS. If you add in a North West or anything like that then you may as well sort the whole system out similarly which will take years as there will be more problems of bickering than we have now.

 

The ignorant and blinkered is factually correct in regards to your viewpoint of me, stating that someone hasn't got a clue geographical of the league.  You have not got a clue about most people on here and neither do I and I don't make suppositions about them, thinking he's just a poster who posts for the sake of it. I've been involved in football playing and working in it for a long time, youth, amateur then junior both the Old central and Ayrshire and the East, coaching for a long time, even when playing in the junior ranks I was coaching.  Read it all back your now acting as if your viewpoint is the only viewpoint that works and you don't intend to listen to anyone else because you think your have been the only one immersed in it for years.

With your viewpoint all your doing is creating a bigger problem  and when making  its in more areas creating leagues here leagues there who goes where in a tier, theres best to have more people on here including me with viewpoints. Oh and I understand that particular viewpoint that I most definitely agree with has come up as a way of a solution for mainly the Tay problem boundary.

I am interested in they who pyramid system working for the improvement of Scottish football, not just in one area whether its the West, East, North or South. I have worked tirelessly, sometimes coaching 5 evenings week developing players for a higher level and then seeing coaches who are only interested in themselves and don't give a shit about the players or future of football and only interested in winning a daft dummy cup and you feel as if a lot of people who are involved in the pyramid system or juniors stay/go have ulterior motive being interested in their owns gains.

[Ped]

Why couldn’t th sjfa compromised aswell then letting the west take there rightful place in tier 6 this season then used this year to work a solution for the east tayside and north regions with the LL and EOS leagues

[Bestsinceslicebread]

9 minutes ago, Ped said:

Why couldn’t th sjfa compromised aswell then letting the west take there rightful place in tier 6 this season then used this year to work a solution for the east tayside and north regions with the LL and EOS leagues

This was the reply from the previous PWG meeting in, I believe, May that went to the West Clubs

"Good afternoon all

As you are all aware, discussions have been ongoing for some time around the introduction of additional leagues at tier 6. Unfortunately it has not been possible to find consensus across all parties.   The compromise proposal put forward at the last PWG meeting has not found support.

Accordingly, there will be no change to the current Tier 6 format for the 2019/20 season.

The SJFA have agreed to alter their disciplinary rules to mirror the JJP and will proceed on this basis from the start of season 2019/20.   The Scottish FA will audit the arrangements put in place by the SJFA.

The Pyramid Working Group will be re-convened during next season.

We are grateful for all the feedback at PWG meetings and directly from clubs at the league general meetings.   As well as the geographical imbalance at Tier 6 we are aware that there is uncertainty about the geographical boundary between the Highland League and the Lowland League which is something which can be addressed at a future PWG meeting.

The PWG meetings identified that for those leagues participating at Tier 6 it should be the top division within that league which is formally part of Tier 6 – divisions below that will not be Tier 6.  The East of Scotland Football League will be moving from three parallel conferences to a structure which has one division at the top.   It is that new top division which will form part  of Tier 6 for Season 2019/20.    Therefore the number of Tier 6 clubs for Season 2019/20 will be 32 (16 from EoSFL and 16 of the 18 clubs in the SoSFL).   Ultimately Tier 6 might comprise approximately 64 clubs and this would be a manageable number for the Scottish FA in terms of the JPP process”"

 

I think your idea is sound.
I get the impression from clubs and on here that if the WOS is not started as the whole of the WRJFA starting as the WOS in the pyramid you will then see disillusioned clubs applying for membership independently if they are hopefully going to a new WOS. Suppose the SFA will start a WOS as long as there is interest. I believe they would only require 8 clubs to get the league up and running but ultimately they would want 16, the same at the EOS and the SOS.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Burnie_man]

21 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

You are directly contradicting yourself in the same sentence. By vetoing a change to the LL playoff format they blocked junior entry at that particular point in the proceedings, so it is patently absurd to state that at no point have they blocked the juniors. If something as simple as that in logic terms is contentious I can understand why the PWG meetings on this topic dragged on for months going over the same old ground.

No. They. Didn't.

[FairWeatherFan]

2 hours ago, G4Mac said:

If I have missed the sfa statement where they commit to backing the juniors at tier 6 in the pyramid then I will hold my hands up and move on. Where do I find it?

Well that did technically happen.

Maxwell came out of the September PWG meeting thinking job done. EoS/SoS/West Region/East Region at tier 6 under the Lowland. North still to be negotiated.

Went to the October Professional Game Board meeting have an update to that effect. No problems there.

Then writes and distributes his draft statement saying it's all been agreed.

Then the EoS and likely LL went waiting a minute you've got the wrong end of the stick here and the statement was never released.

[Pyramidic]

I follow this thread daily but the case from both sides has become tedious and repetitive.

It does seem so obvious if proper moves are made to form an independent Pyramid-friendly WoSL (by the SFA or others) it will wake up the WRJFA and they will then have every incentive for the 4 divisions of the WRJFA to move over "en-bloc" to the SFA Pyramid to avoid being dismembered.

The movement of the WRJFA to the Pyramid will then encourage movement of clubs within the ERJFA as they will perceive themselves as a lost cause.

The key strategy must be to start forming an independent Pyramid-friendly WoSL without delay.  NOW!

[Bestsinceslicebread]

1 minute ago, Pyramidic said:

I follow this thread daily but the case from both sides has become tedious and repetitive.

It does seem so obvious if proper moves are made to form an independent Pyramid-friendly WoSL (by the SFA or others) it will wake up the WRJFA and they will then have every incentive for the 4 divisions of the WRJFA to move over "en-bloc" to the SFA Pyramid to avoid being dismembered.

The movement of the WRJFA to the Pyramid will then encourage movement of clubs within the ERJFA as they will perceive themselves as a lost cause.

The key strategy must be to start forming an independent Pyramid-friendly WoSL without delay.  NOW!

Totally agree 100%, if the WOS had been sorted then there would be stimulations on all areas. and by that not just the ERJFA but also the North Region.
The WOS needs to be started for hopefully as soon as possible