Junior football, what is the future?

[FairWeatherFan]

2 hours ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

I'm going to be criticized here and expect as much for the following post.
Its a bit crude and thrown up but most will get the idea.

In the past in the East, The North and the West there has been problems with teams wanting to join wholly or indecently, what league to play in or allowed to play in and all these things have caused confusion.  Whose allowing teams in by vote and whose blocking teams in or blocking anything else like a new league.  The SFA should just tell the Highland League, Lowland league etc... what to do and they run it accordingly but teams joining are scrutinised by say an independent body within the SFA.  The types of voting I don't not like as clubs will vote to help themselves and not serve Scottish Football better in the long term.
The SFA should not be allowed to stop any team from becoming a member as long as each team fits into the criteria and requirements of their, (tier), entry.
I'm not too sure at the pyramid commitment, as  I said if a team is at a certain division and win promotion and are not fit for the next/higher divisions due to requirements then they do not move and someone lower takes their place.  I'm sure after a few years of missing out, said teams would put in place changes so that they are not restricted.


My viewpoint is that if the SFA want and believe Scottish Football will be better served with more teams joining the senior ranks and the possibility of the pyramid system at all levels then they should take the voting of this out from everyone and use their own power at the top. Have the balls to decide, under consultation, the best way forward and structure if the current structure is to remain, (current structure is fine with the addition of the WOS),  then build on it, no squabbling, no voting, just get it sorted.  Someone mentioned the problem with the Highland league only wanting 20 teams, well feck them, if there are another 20 highland teams want to join the senior ranks and fit into the current criteria then they should be allowed, The Highland league just have to make up more divisions, deal with it.  The problem of the boundary, with teams like Tayport etc... I like the idea that if there are boundary lines added then if a team is outwith that boundary of say 5 miles then they are allowed to choose what league to play in,.  There is always going to be teams close to any boundary and which means teams have a bit of travelling, its part and parcel so they have to deal with it.

In all divisors there's promotion, I like 2 promoted and 3rd play off with 3rd bottom of higher division but might be a bit too much so 1 promoted n a 2nd place play off with 2nd bottom of higher division.. Also if a team wins divisions and are not deemed fit to enter at the next level because they do not have the correct requirements in stadia etc... then it goes to the next placed team.

No matter what anyone thinks, the idea is that everything will happen and happen straight away with no voting process.  Clubs can vote for example how the divisions are worked out. Say 40 teams are in the Highland league and the Highland league decide on two divisions or three divisions, teams can vote on this idea.

I've just woke up from nightshift  and read a few posts and see all these comments about voting so I've threw this post up, apologies if I read it in 5 hours time after woken up and thing, 'what was I on'

 

So SFA grab your balls and get it sorted, too many weaklings out there and too many only interested in their own jobs to cause big change.

 

However much of a double standard it may seem I don't have a problem with clubs choosing which league they are relegated to, but I do have a problem with which league they are promoted to.

And that was the crux of the idea of the East Region entering as it was with certain clubs being able to choose HL or LL.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

12 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

However much of a double standard it may seem I don't have a problem with clubs choosing which league they are relegated to, but I do have a problem with which league they are promoted to.

And that was the crux of the idea of the East Region entering as it was with certain clubs being able to choose HL or LL.

I get that but this could be taken out of their hands.
Too many people, teams, leagues are having a vote on the important stuff regarding the structure, some thinking of themselves.
SAF should take control, no votes and set the guidelines and each league, Lowland, Highland etc.. organize within the SFA remit.

In the idea of a boundary the SFA should either make it clear cut, either your in the boundary or out   OR    if there's a boundary and teams who are close within say 5 miles can choose but the choosing must be done before the season starts or when they join the seniors ranks/become members so they cannot change it but can be put under advisement every 4 years or so.
Obviously that's under the current structure of the Scottish league Pyramid system.

 

One problem I see if you are promoted to tier 5 then most teams would, I expect, be joining the Lowland league as most of the East, West and South want this as the Highland is too far away so that's the only geographical problem, big percentage of teams wanting to eventually get to the lowland than the Highland, a bit lopsided.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread
More detail

[vikingTON]

Ian Maxwell and Rod Petrie are morons who haven't got a clue about non-league football: giving all power to the SFA to ram through their 'vision' would be a disaster. 

[Burnie_man]

8 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

I get that but this could be taken out of their hands.
Too many people, teams, leagues are having a vote on the important stuff regarding the structure, some thinking of themselves.
SAF should take control, no votes and set the guidelines and each league, Lowland, Highland etc.. organize within the SFA remit..

Surely you understand that clubs have the power to decide what happens with their own league? The league cannot be forced to accept something that the members don’t want, the SFA found that out, they cannot “take control”.

The only vote that has been taken in the last 12 months in the senior leagues was to accept or reject the SFA proposal about letting the WRJFA and ERJFA in at tier 6 and to run their own discipline, this was rejected unanimously by the LL and EoS, not sure about SoS.  Subsequently, a “straw poll” at the infamous EoS meeting attended by Maxwell and Petrie saw no dissention to admitting the WRJFA alone. This was not followed through.

Change has to come by consensus and agreement, the SFA cannot force solutions onto leagues.

However as others have said previously the most straightforward solution for the SFA to pursue is to take-up the offer from the EoS to help set-up a new WoSFL and let clubs decide for themselves whether to stay Junior or join the new league.  That is an option already there for the below the Tay clubs in the East.  I can’t see anyone being annoyed at that, apart from maybe the SJFA.

The SFA/PWG can then turn their attention to the North Region and North of Tay clubs, which require a different solution.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

28 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Surely you understand that clubs have the power to decide what happens with their own league? The league cannot be forced to accept something that the members don’t want, the SFA found that out, they cannot “take control”.

The only vote that has been taken in the last 12 months in the senior leagues was to accept or reject the SFA proposal about letting the WRJFA and ERJFA in at tier 6 and to run their own discipline, this was rejected unanimously by the LL and EoS, not sure about SoS.  Subsequently, a “straw poll” at the infamous EoS meeting attended by Maxwell and Petrie saw no dissention to admitting the WRJFA alone. This was not followed through.

Change has to come by consensus and agreement, the SFA cannot force solutions onto leagues.

However as others have said previously the most straightforward solution for the SFA to pursue is to take-up the offer from the EoS to help set-up a new WoSFL and let clubs decide for themselves whether to stay Junior or join the new league.  That is an option already there for the below the Tay clubs in the East.  I can’t see anyone being annoyed at that, apart from maybe the SJFA.

The SFA/PWG can then turn their attention to the North Region and North of Tay clubs, which require a different solution.

Burnieman, yes I agree with you that clubs should have a vote, but personally not at this. 

Why o why are the EOS deciding on the West staring and at what level, it should have nothing to do with them.
The SFA should have a structure in place, the one they have now or come up with a better one. If every team in the junior ranks wanted to join the seniors then the SFA have to make sure the structure they have in place works perfectly as the only reason that the system is getting bigger is to make Scottish Football better, allegedly.
The EOS, SOS should be told, the structure is staying the same and how they fit into it as in there is no change to them, there should be just a West joining in at their level and the East juniors a division below the EOS.  All it is, simplistically is that a lot of teams are joining so they should fit into a section.

I don't think anyone would have rejected the West coming in at Tier 6 common sense should prevail on that one but the ERJFA should come in below the EOS division, (why because theres already a EOS league and the ERJFS should come in under that as they have joined later),  the SFA should have just made it abundantly clear on this. Any team joining the senior ranks will have to go in at the bottom level and thus fight their way through the years to get to where they want or should be.  Its not double standards as the West league is put higher up, just works out that way as there needs to be a West section to fall level, in line with the EOS and the SOS.

yeah the Tay clubs situations is a bit troublesome but I'm sure a siltation can be found.

Ffs I hope this is conveyed the way its intended, I've had to read over it a few times

 

If I'm correct in thinking, the main problems

1.   If and when a WOS league starts and should it be in at Tier 6 
2.   Where will the ERJFA teams join in at if and when they enter
3.   The situation of the North Region and North or Tay Teams

There's obviously a few more problems but are they the main 3 ?
There is always a solution to any problem, we just have to be objective in finding the solution for the bigger picture.

 

Edited August 28, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread
More Detail

[AlanCamelonfan]

41 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Burnieman, yes I agree with you that clubs should have a vote, but personally not at this. 

Why o why are the EOS deciding on the West staring and at what level, it should have nothing to do with them.
The SFA should have a structure in place, the one they have now or come up with a better one. If every team in the junior ranks wanted to join the seniors then the SFA have to make sure the structure they have in place works perfectly as the only reason that the system is getting bigger is to make Scottish Football better, allegedly.
The EOS, SOS should be told, the structure is staying the same and how they fit into it as in there is no change to them, there should be just a West joining in at their level and the East juniors a division below the EOS.  All it is, simplistically is that a lot of teams are joining so they should fit into a section.

I don't think anyone would have rejected the West coming in at Tier 6 common sense should prevail on that one but the ERJFA should come in below the EOS division, (why because theres already a EOS league and the ERJFS should come in under that as they have joined later),  the SFA should have just made it abundantly clear on this. Any team joining the senior ranks will have to go in at the bottom level and thus fight their way through the years to get to where they want or should be.  Its not double standards as the West league is put higher up, just works out that way as there needs to be a West section to fall level, in line with the EOS and the SOS.

yeah the Tay clubs situations is a bit troublesome but I'm sure a siltation can be found.

Ffs I hope this is conveyed the way its intended, I've had to read over it a few times

 

If I'm correct in thinking, the main problems

1.   If and when a WOS league starts and should it be in at Tier 6 
2.   Where will the ERJFA teams join in at if and when they enter
3.   The situation of the North Region and North or Tay Teams

There's obviously a few more problems but are they the main 3 ?
There is always a solution to any problem, we just have to be objective in finding the solution for the bigger picture.

 

how can the ersjfa come in below? Where do they go after that? None of them want to go into EOSFL so how would that work? Tayside teams can't join because of the SFA rules

[Bestsinceslicebread]

7 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

how can the ersjfa come in below? Where do they go after that? None of them want to go into EOSFL so how would that work? Tayside teams can't join because of the SFA rules

 

7 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

how can the ersjfa come in below? Where do they go after that? None of them want to go into EOSFL so how would that work? Tayside teams can't join because of the SFA rules

Seriously, they just go the way they are the now right under the current EOS, then the East super North and East super south no hassle, no problem and all it means is that some teams wait a an extra year to get to where they believe they truly belong.  its the ERSJFA fault for deciding now to join.  if any of those junior teams in the East junior league joined tow year ago they would be in a better position. its a first come first served and when you join you enter at the lowest point.  Just luck has it that's there's no WOS yet so there should be and if and when the West Juniors join they fill that void.  All this arguing means juniors teams are making it harder for themselves or longer to get to where they wanna be

 

lets put it this way, if there wasn't so much stupid bickering the ERJFA could be starting already but now its a year less and then might be another year less if they don't agree and then another year less and so on so any east junior team who want to go senior should grab their own balls and think I aint waiting on this arguments, I'm joining now and whatever level they put me in and fight my way to the top

There should be a East of Scotland section, a South of Scotland section and a west of Scotland section so how can you say where The EJ go from there, they don't dictate what division they want in, they ae told, same for the West. if they don't want it, they don't join and stay in the juniors,

Edited August 28, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Burnie_man]

42 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Burnieman, yes I agree with you that clubs should have a vote, but personally not at this. 

Why o why are the EOS deciding on the West staring and at what level, it should have nothing to do with them.
The SFA should have a structure in place, the one they have now or come up with a better one. If every team in the junior ranks wanted to join the seniors then the SFA have to make sure the structure they have in place works perfectly as the only reason that the system is getting bigger is to make Scottish Football better, allegedly.
The EOS, SOS should be told, the structure is staying the same and how they fit into it as in there is no change to them, there should be just a West joining in at their level and the East juniors a division below the EOS.  All it is, simplistically is that a lot of teams are joining so they should fit into a section.

I don't think anyone would have rejected the West coming in at Tier 6 common sense should prevail on that one but the ERJFA should come in below the EOS division, (why because theres already a EOS league and the ERJFS should come in under that as they have joined later),  the SFA should have just made it abundantly clear on this. Any team joining the senior ranks will have to go in at the bottom level and thus fight their way through the years to get to where they want or should be.  Its not double standards as the West league is put higher up, just works out that way as there needs to be a West section to fall level, in line with the EOS and the SOS.

yeah the Tay clubs situations is a bit troublesome but I'm sure a siltation can be found.

Ffs I hope this is conveyed the way its intended, I've had to read over it a few times

 

If I'm correct in thinking, the main problems

1.   If and when a WOS league starts and should it be in at Tier 6 
2.   Where will the ERJFA teams join in at if and when they enter
3.   The situation of the North Region and North or Tay Teams

There's obviously a few more problems but are they the main 3 ?
There is always a solution to any problem, we just have to be objective in finding the solution for the bigger picture.

 

The EoS haven't "decided" what level a west league enters at, everyone accepts that a west league would come in at the same level as the EoS and SoS. The EoS have absolutely no objections and as has been said umpteen times, that could already have happened for this season, but didn't. Not sure how you got the impression otherwise.

 

[Bestsinceslicebread]

5 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

The EoS haven't "decided" what level a west league enters at, everyone accepts that a west league would come in at the same level as the EoS and SoS. The EoS have absolutely no objections and as has been said umpteen times, that could already have happened for this season, but didn't. Not sure how you got the impression otherwise.

 

No I have no impression on it, I'm just stating EOS should not have voted on what level the West joins in at, (they might have all voted for or against). That's for the SFA to decide.   I would have the same impression if the shoe was on the other foot as in no East section and there was a West section, why should the West vote on them starting up when its common sense there should be.

As I said allegedly SFA wan tto make it better with their structure so as you said Burnieman a 'West' a 'South'' and a 'East' is suitable

Edited August 28, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

lets put it this way, if there wasn't so much stupid bickering the ERJFA could be starting already but now its a year less and then might be another year less if they don't agree and then another year less and so on so any east junior team who want to go senior should grab their own balls and think I aint waiting on this arguments, I'm joining now and whatever level they put me in and fight my way to the top

Clubs in the East Juniors (south of the Tay) have had two chances to join the EoS.  The clubs remaining Junior should be allowed to do so if they want, if any want to join the EoS next season then they can.

A new WoS league would give clubs in the west the same opportunity.

[LongTimeLurker]

The SFA wanted the superleagues of the WRSJFA and ERSJFA to be tier 6 leagues this season as did the SJFA. It would have happened if the EoS didn't have an effective veto over changes to the format of the LL entry playoff.

[AlanCamelonfan]

7 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

 

Seriously, they just go the way they are the now right under the current EOS, then the East super North and East super south no hassle, no problem and all it means is that some teams wait a an extra year to get to where they believe they truly belong.  its the ERSJFA fault for deciding now to join.  if any of those junior teams in the East junior league joined tow year ago they would be in a better position. its a first come first served and when you join you enter at the lowest point.  Just luck has it that's there's no WOS yet so there should be and if and when the West Juniors join they fill that void.  All this arguing means juniors teams are making it harder for themselves or longer to get to where they wanna be

 

lets put it this way, if there wasn't so much stupid bickering the ERJFA could be starting already but now its a year less and then might be another year less if they don't agree and then another year less and so on so any east junior team who want to go senior should grab their own balls and think I aint waiting on this arguments, I'm joining now and whatever level they put me in and fight my way to the top

There should be a East of Scotland section, a South of Scotland section and a west of Scotland section so how can you say where The EJ go from there, they don't dictate what division they want in, they ae told, same for the West. if they don't want it, they don't join and stay in the juniors,

But they don't want to join eosfl. They want their own rules etc etc

[Bestsinceslicebread]

18 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Clubs in the East Juniors (south of the Tay) have had two chances to join the EoS.  The clubs remaining Junior should be allowed to do so if they want, if any want to join the EoS next season then they can.

A new WoS league would give clubs in the west the same opportunity.

Im in total agreement with this and state the same pages ago on this thread.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

One problem I see if you are promoted to tier 5 then most teams would, I expect, be joining the Lowland league as most of the East, West and South want this as the Highland is too far away so that's the only geographical problem, big percentage of teams wanting to eventually get to the lowland than the Highland, a bit lopsided.

14 teams in the North Super only 1 is in the Highlands. Everyone else is Aberdeenshire or Angus.

The only the way the Highland League becomes more palatable travel wise is by clubs being promoted into it.

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

No I have no impression on it, I'm just stating EOS should not have voted on what level the West joins in at,

Which part of "they didn't" don't you understand?

[Bestsinceslicebread]

Just now, AlanCamelonfan said:

But they don't want to join eosfl. They want their own rules etc etc

I dont get what this shit is about their own rules.

the rules should be set by the SFA

They hand them down to all the league at each level (obviously different rules may apply to each level) and then each league runs within the confines of the standards set by the SFA.
if the East juniors don't want it then don't join and stay where they are and leave it open for any individual team to leave the juniors and join the Seniors and I may add should be open if any senior team want sot leave the seniors to join the juniors.

 

No wonder Scottish football is in the state it is in.

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The SFA wanted the superleagues of the WRSJFA and ERSJFA to be tier 6 leagues this season as did the SJFA. It would have happened if the EoS didn't have an effective veto over changes to the format of the LL entry playoff.

The West could have been in this season if the SJFA/SFA hadn't prevented it.   The EoS and LL rightly refused a second East league to enter.  But we've been over this ad infitum.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

2 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Which part of "they didn't" don't you understand?

Sorry spelling, my bad.
I'm meaning general I get your saying they didn't.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

The West could have been in this season if the SJFA/SFA hadn't prevented it.   The EoS and LL rightly refused a second East league to enter.  But we've been over this ad infitum.

I get that but it is wrong, there should only be ONE West, One East and One South if we stick to the way the structure is at the moment and the East region juniors should fall just under the |EOS.  If all the West teams voted to go as one and it didn't happen because of some inept person at the WJFA then as a west club I would say, Feck them, We are going alone.
There's been too many people in authority with too many agenda and its creating the situation we have at the moment.

[LongTimeLurker]

8 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Im in total agreement with this and sate the same pages ago on this thread.

We should know after the next PWG meeting (assuming the process still leaks like sieve) whether the SFA are still in synch with the SJFA about how best to proceed. As things stand new discipline procedures are in place in the juniors this season in anticipation of imminent pyramid entry. The idea that junior clubs have the option to stay out flies in the face of what is actually happening. A pyramid league structure by definition means everybody is involved and the SJFA is still (at least in terms of policy determined at its AGMs) committed to joining en masse.