Junior football, what is the future?

[Guest]

You are right about "too many bodies looking out for themselves".  The PWG may be able to solve this, but  is it likely to end up as "an agreed deal" (unlikely in the short term), or to end up as a "no deal" (dragging on and on).  

However, the clock is ticking, and currently there seems to be a real "fear" from junior clubs, who don't want to stick their heads above the parapet. either for or against pyramid membership. 

What associations are looking after themselves? If I want to join something I have to accept the same terms as all the other people who have joined before me, I can't go in and ask a company or association to give up all their position just to get me to join up.

 

There is a league set up in the east, the ersjfa should join it.

 

Leave the south league as it is with exactly the same level assigned to it.

 

Form a wos out of the wrsjfa, if they don't come on board as a collective then start a new wos league and take any applications.

 

North if the tay line go north to the HL, south come south to the LL.

 

Pyramid achieved.

 

[Robert James]

2 hours ago, G4Mac said:

What associations are looking after themselves? If I want to join something I have to accept the same terms as all the other people who have joined before me, I can't go in and ask a company or association to give up all their position just to get me to join up.

 

There is a league set up in the east, the ersjfa should join it.

 

Leave the south league as it is with exactly the same level assigned to it.

 

Form a wos out of the wrsjfa, if they don't come on board as a collective then start a new wos league and take any applications.

 

North if the tay line go north to the HL, south come south to the LL.

 

Pyramid achieved.

 

Spot on, but will it get lost in football 'politics' ?

[LongTimeLurker]

14 hours ago, G4Mac said:

...if they don't come on board as a collective then start a new wos league and take any applications.

The SJFA tried to join as a collective last season so it remains to be seen who the SFA blames for it not happening. It's definitely not safe to assume that a new WoS is going to be approved and sanctioned by the SFA. They might keep trying to drive a square peg into a round hole with the same approach from last season, because although two east feeders is completely anathema to some people who are very close to the issue, it's probably not so obvious what the problem is with that when the issue is being discussed at SFA Board level. Getting the existing leagues on board in as straightfoward a way as possible is the simple fix.

On 01/09/2019 at 13:53, razamanaz said:

Sorry if this has been covered already but ...Have the SFA notioned anything about not inviting the junior teams into the Scottish Cup from now on as there are loads of new senior and licensed clubs affiliated to the SFA now?

Not recently. It's like the licensing for EoS clubs is going to be ended by the SFA rumour that was being peddled on here last year. What some people with a particular agenda hoped would happen, but in reality was never particularly likely.

Edited September 3, 2019 by LongTimeLurker

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The SJFA tried to join as a collective last season so it remains to be seen who the SFA blames for it not happening. It's definitely not safe to assume that a new WoS is going to be approved and sanctioned by the SFA. They might keep trying to drive a square peg into a round hole with the same approach from last season, because although two east feeders is completely anathema to some people who are very close to the issue, it's probably not so obvious what the problem is with that when the issue is being discussed at SFA Board level. Getting the existing leagues on board in as straightfoward a way as possible is the simple fix.

Not recently. It's like the licensing for EoS clubs is going to be ended by the SFA rumour that was being peddled on here last year. What some people with a particular agenda hoped would happen, but in reality was never particularly likely.

Maxwell and Petrie are well aware of the opinions of the EoS member clubs, and board, with regards to the ERJFA entering as a competitor league, together with the problems it brings with the HL/LL boundary.  It was discussed at length at the EoS meeting they attended and they have probably seen the minutes as well.

How it proceeds from here is anyone's guess, I'm not even sure if and when the next PWG meeting will be held.  Their first task when it does reconvene should be to sort out what is going to happen in the West, and disassociate it with anything to do with the East. That's an easy win.

[Guest]

Long time lurker, you do realise that continually pointing out a falsity doesn't make it any more true the longer period of time goes by?

The sjfa played their game.... And lost. They cannot have their cake and eat it after avoiding any mention of cake for 5 years.....

[cmontheloknow]

13 hours ago, G4Mac said:

Long time lurker, you do realise that continually pointing out a falsity doesn't make it any more true the longer period of time goes by?

The sjfa played their game.... And lost. They cannot have their cake and eat it after avoiding any mention of cake for 5 years.....

" A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its boots on"

[LongTimeLurker]

^^^No idea what these two are referring to. My posts have been factual. The SFA officeholders were not siding with the EoS at PWG meetings last year and wanted ERSJFA entry at tier 6 complete with teams from north of the Tay. Read the minutes that were posted on here. It remains to be seen what their posture will be moving forward. As Burnie_man points out above it's not at all clear what's going to happen over the next few months.

[Guest]

They did not side with anyone, it is quite easy to put your own agenda driven spin on words written down on paper. As far as I remember the SFA did not clearly state what you infer they did.

 

The SFA then attended an eos meeting and showed their complete lack of understanding of the non league situation, which surprisingly enough appeared to mirror the stance taken by good old TJ.... Take from that what you will.

 

They also didn't try and join the pyramid en masse, they conveniently dropped the North when it suited and demanded to come to the party, pick what seat they were given at the party and what music the dj was to play..... Under the guise of compromise....Again take from that what you will.

 

Yet here we find ourselves fully a year down the line from guaranteed entry at tier 6 and there are still no junior clubs within the pyramid under the sjfa management..... Again take from that what you will.

^^^No idea what these two are referring to. My posts have been factual. The SFA officeholders were not siding with the EoS at PWG meetings last year and wanted ERSJFA entry at tier 6 complete with teams from north of the Tay. Read the minutes that were posted on here. It remains to be seen what their posture will be moving forward. As Burnie_man points out above it's not at all clear what's going to happen over the next few months.

 

[LongTimeLurker]

This is bizarre. You've just confirmed what I wrote was correct with the "appeared to mirror the stance taken by good old TJ" bit.

[superbigal]

The criminal thing was these Lower PWG meetings were allowed to continue month after month without any apparent change in Directive.  The Veto could and should have kicked home far earlier.  That was why I criticised the LL representatives during the ongoing leaked minutes. They appeared to never object to anything.  I also criticised one EOS Rep who I thought was partly asleep or did not actually realise what was being pushed through (Tayside confusion). Clearly minutes maybe do not tell the full story as Burnieman has always indicated the EOS were saying the proposal was unsatisfactory.  The Juniors (TJ) just seemed to be happy that it was steaming towards a "done deal".

Hopefully everyone now knows what can and cant be done.   The ERSJFA in whatever form cannot run alongside the EOS in a Pyramid.

Ongoing I still think the SFA think the most likely solution is an EOS & ERSJFA merger of sorts.  Reading back what is left of any directive still seems to assume Lochee, Broughty etc being part of this Southern "solution".   Establishing if the LL/HL boundary can/will be tweaked is the 1st thing that really needs established (IMO). I certainly can't talk for Lochee, Broughty & Carnoustie but I believe they would still much rather be part of a South pyramid than a North Pyramid. I don't think this view is much to do with travelling but more to do with getting back to playing Linglithgow & Boness etc eventually.  Again all my opinion. And no I have not spoken to Larry since I was at a Lochee match months ago. Nor have I spoken to Mark at Carnoustie in a couple of years.

Do the EOS/LL guys think they would actually agree to a boundary shift ? Do they have a veto on such a move ?

Edited September 4, 2019 by superbigal

[Burnie_man]

22 minutes ago, superbigal said:

The criminal thing was these Lower PWG meetings were allowed to continue month after month without any apparent change in Directive.  The Veto could and should have kicked home far earlier.  That was why I criticised the LL representatives during the ongoing leaked minutes. They appeared to never object to anything.  I also criticised one EOS Rep who I thought was partly asleep or did not actually realise what was being pushed through (Tayside confusion). Clearly minutes maybe do not tell the full story as Burnieman has always indicated the EOS were saying the proposal was unsatisfactory.  The Juniors (TJ) just seemed to be happy that it was steaming towards a "done deal".

Hopefully everyone now knows what can and cant be done.   The ERSJFA in whatever form cannot run alongside the EOS in a Pyramid.

Ongoing I still think the SFA think the most likely solution is an EOS & ERSJFA merger of sorts.  Reading back what is left of any directive still seems to assume Lochee, Broughty etc being part of this Southern "solution".   Establishing if the LL/HL boundary can/will be tweaked is the 1st thing that really needs established (IMO). I certainly can't talk for Lochee, Broughty & Carnoustie but I believe they would still much rather be part of a South pyramid than a North Pyramid. I don't think this view is much to do with travelling but more to do with getting back to playing Linglithgow & Boness etc eventually.  Again all my opinion. And no I have not spoken to Larry since I was at a Lochee match months ago. Nor have I spoken to Mark at Carnoustie in a couple of years.

Do the EOS/LL guys think they would actually agree to a boundary shift ? Do they have a veto on such a move ?

I think the boundary issue would be a matter for the Professional Game Board, ie SFA, SPFL, HL, LL, nothing to do with the EoS.

If they agreed to move the boundary northwards in order for the Tayside clubs to fall into the LL area, then it would still require the ERJFA and EoS to first want a merger, and then agree a merger. That wont be as straightforward as it sounds.

Another solution would be for only the ERJFA South clubs to merge/join with the EoS, and for the ERJFA North clubs to form their own Tayside league with any Licenced winners entering LL play-offs  (The formation of a Tayside league was supported by the EoS). That could be awkward numbers wise though.

I'm not averse to Tayside clubs coming into the LL area , however personally I don't think anymore clubs should be added into the mix  just because they fancy playing Linlithgow or Bo'ness, the LL feeders would already be top heavy once the west comes in. 

A solution should be found for the ERJFA North clubs to hook up with the NRJFA Superleague with regional Tayside and Aberdeenshire/Moray leagues below. They already have co-operation with the Tayside/North Cup. Clubs like Jeanfield, Kinnoull, Tayport, Newburgh could be given the option of either EoS or the new north league.

A new North/Tayside Superleague would sit a tier 6, regionals at tier 7, all clubs could get Licenced and enter Scottish Cup, with promotion to the HL for the winners if Licenced.  Perhaps make it optional promotion for the first three years until it beds in.

 

 

 

[Bestsinceslicebread]

44 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I think the boundary issue would be a matter for the Professional Game Board, ie SFA, SPFL, HL, LL, nothing to do with the EoS.

If they agreed to move the boundary northwards in order for the Tayside clubs to fall into the LL area, then it would still require the ERJFA and EoS to first want a merger, and then agree a merger. That wont be as straightforward as it sounds.

Another solution would be for only the ERJFA South clubs to merge/join with the EoS, and for the ERJFA North clubs to form their own Tayside league with any Licenced winners entering LL play-offs  (The formation of a Tayside league was supported by the EoS). That could be awkward numbers wise though.

I'm not averse to Tayside clubs coming into the LL area , however personally I don't think anymore clubs should be added into the mix  just because they fancy playing Linlithgow or Bo'ness, the LL feeders would already be top heavy once the west comes in. 

A solution should be found for the ERJFA North clubs to hook up with the NRJFA Superleague with regional Tayside and Aberdeenshire/Moray leagues below. They already have co-operation with the Tayside/North Cup. Clubs like Jeanfield, Kinnoull, Tayport, Newburgh could be given the option of either EoS or the new north league.

A new North/Tayside Superleague would sit a tier 6, regionals at tier 7, all clubs could get Licenced and enter Scottish Cup, with promotion to the HL for the winners if Licenced.  Perhaps make it optional promotion for the first three years until it beds in.

 

 

 

Yes the boundary should be sorted officially for the whole of Scotland so EVERY team knows what league they will be in and could be in with promotion and relegation in the future..

|I'm sorry Burnieman, usually  what you say I agree with but East/north league is total out nonsense.

I am very objective in every way when I look at the for's and against's, I have no affiliation to junior, senior, north, south east and west any association.
I am more interested in the development of youth football throughout Scotland and can see improvements once the senior pyramid system is sorted but I still would not have my preference /  allegiance make my or have any bearing on my viewpoint and decision making. This whole process pyramid chat/juniors joining the Seniors is not to help any particular team or any league or association body out, the idea is to IMPROVE  Scottish football and so many neglect that fact.

Boundary's should be sorted and the Tayside clubs in one side, No Tay league or Tay/East league. 
No fecking East, South East, North East league. Your leaving everything open for a North West, West South. Your making too many leagues, with one area getting an advantage of extra places.

The north teams join under the highland league at tier 6 as they are going to be promotion/relegation with the Highland league

If it remains at Highland league and lowland league at tier 5 and then at the moment its East of Scotland league and South of Scotland league on Tier 6, then there should ONLY be a West of Scotland League to make it level for all teams under the Highland boundary.

The ERJFA are located in the East, its simple, they join the EOS, no exceptions, (except if boundary changes before enter so some teams will either enter the North or stay in the EOS).
They do not dictate where they should go etc.., they are joining the senior ranks and will fit in accordingly.
I seriously still cant over this, if the ERJFA don't go as one then what happens, a ERJFA team will apply independently and will go straight into the EOS if accepted so wtf are they dictating they should be a separate body, (Two East leagues, totally stupid)

If you have a EOS, SOS and A WOS, the three leagues will be fighting for promotion to the Lowland league and the North league will be fighting for promotion to the Highland league

I would love to see promotion or possible promotion to the Seniors from Tier 5 for two teams, both winners of Highland and Lowland league have a play-off final to see who are promoted as normal but the runners up will then go into a semi final playff off with the two second placed teams and the second bottom of Scottish Division two. The outright winner of the final will get promotion.  means its still competitive, exciting at the lower end of the league and hopefully stir interest and the teams of Division two cant rest on their laurels as they know hat two teams can be relegated from division two.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Burnie_man]

22 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Yes the boundary should be sorted officially for the whole of Scotland so EVERY team knows what league they will be in and could be in with promotion and relegation in the future..

|I'm sorry Burnieman, usually  what you say I agree with but East/north league is total out nonsense.

I am very objective in every way when I look at the for's and against's, I have no affiliation to junior, senior, north, south east and west any association.
I am more interested in the development of youth football throughout Scotland and can see improvements once the senior pyramid system is sorted but I still would not have my preference /  allegiance make my or have any bearing on my viewpoint and decision making. This whole process pyramid chat/juniors joining the Seniors is not to help any particular team or any league or association body out, the idea is to IMPROVE  Scottish football and so many neglect that fact.

Boundary's should be sorted and the Tayside clubs in one side, No Tay league or Tay/East league. 
No fecking East, South East, North East league. Your leaving everything open for a North West, West South. Your making too many leagues, with one area getting an advantage of extra places.

The north teams join under the highland league at tier 6 as they are going to be promotion/relegation with the Highland league

If it remains at Highland league and lowland league at tier 5 and then at the moment its East of Scotland league and South of Scotland league on Tier 6, then there should ONLY be a West of Scotland League to make it level for all teams under the Highland boundary.

The ERJFA are located in the East, its simple, they join the EOS, no exceptions, (except if boundary changes before enter so some teams will either enter the North or stay in the EOS).
They do not dictate where they should go etc.., they are joining the senior ranks and will fit in accordingly.
I seriously still cant over this, if the ERJFA don't go as one then what happens, a ERJFA team will apply independently and will go straight into the EOS if accepted so wtf are they dictating they should be a separate body, (Two East leagues, totally stupid)

If you have a EOS, SOS and A WOS, the three leagues will be fighting for promotion to the Lowland league and the North league will be fighting for promotion to the Highland league

I would love to see promotion or possible promotion to the Seniors from Tier 5 for two teams, both winners of Highland and Lowland league have a play-off final to see who are promoted as normal but the runners up will then go into a semi final playff off with the two second placed teams and the second bottom of Scottish Division two. The outright winner of the final will get promotion.  means its still competitive, exciting at the lower end of the league and hopefully stir interest and the teams of Division two cant rest on their laurels as they know hat two teams can be relegated from division two.

Frankly, I'm struggling to understand any point you're trying to make in amongst all that, and my suggestions on a possible way forward are not "nonsense", they are based on what realistically can be achieved.

You perhaps need to better understand the geography of the ERJFA, and the fact that it's clubs currently straddle the HL/LL boundary line, whilst clubs in the EoS do not. 

This needs to be dealt with at some point, and there isn't an easy answer.

[AlanCamelonfan]

24 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Frankly, I'm struggling to understand any point you're trying to make in amongst all that, and my suggestions on a possible way forward are not "nonsense", they are based on what realistically can be achieved.

You perhaps need to better understand the geography of the ERJFA, and the fact that it's clubs currently straddle the HL/LL boundary line, whilst clubs in the EoS do not. 

This needs to be dealt with at some point, and there isn't an easy answer.

Its straight forward tayside joins north juniors. Ersjfa if they want in pyramid should be tier 7nconference. If not stay outside. If west want in en Massey they can do if not. Its wosfl and take applications and junior continues out with pyramid with only junior cup winner qualifying for scottish cup

[Bestsinceslicebread]

15 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Frankly, I'm struggling to understand any point you're trying to make in amongst all that, and my suggestions on a possible way forward are not "nonsense", they are based on what realistically can be achieved.

You perhaps need to better understand the geography of the ERJFA, and the fact that it's clubs currently straddle the HL/LL boundary line, whilst clubs in the EoS do not. 

This needs to be dealt with at some point, and there isn't an easy answer.

If your struggling to see any point I'm making and anyone else then that it truly worrying.
I don't make it personal, I do not intend of be ignorantly of others comments, I try and allays what's they are stating and why they are stating it and the outcomes good or bad if implemented.

To make a statement to someone that 'they need to better understand the geography of the ERJFA'I when you do not even know that person it totally ignorant and blinkered and if you go about your reasoning with that kind of attitude then you will get nowhere.  Its all about all viewpoints, understandings, debates and in order to know that your viewpoint is right you need to understand what other viewpoints are and why they have come up with it.     I understand it totally geographically and with the ERJFA coming under the EOS is the best solution as if you open up other areas as separate entities then where does it stop because by rights, you do the same for all areas.
You cannot make allowances for one area and make it lopsided for the other.  By rights you could have a  end up with a central area in Tier 6 and or a West North Area and West South area, why not, where do you stop.
There should be no North East and South East team leagues at tier 6. The Tay clubs in which most see a problem either fit into the EOS section or the Highland section. If all the Tay clubs were opposed to going to the Highland then under consultation, the sorting of the boundary can intake the area of the teams effect and add them into the EOS.

I guarantee in the system if all junior teams join there will be a honeymoon period and some will lose out, either for bad area, location, bad business plan from the teams themselves and we all know there are many junior teams who do not see any progression in their team and will likely stay in the lower depths of the leagues be it Senior or junior

[Burnie_man]

12 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

If your struggling to see any point I'm making and anyone else then that it truly worrying.
I don't make it personal, I do not intend of be ignorantly of others comments, I try and allays what's they are stating and why they are stating it and the outcomes good or bad if implemented.

To make a statement to someone that 'they need to better understand the geography of the ERJFA'I when you do not even know that person it totally ignorant and blinkered and if you go about your reasoning with that kind of attitude then you will get nowhere.  Its all about all viewpoints, understandings, debates and in order to know that your viewpoint is right you need to understand what other viewpoints are and why they have come up with it.     I understand it totally geographically and with the ERJFA coming under the EOS is the best solution as if you open up other areas as separate entities then where does it stop because by rights, you do the same for all areas.
You cannot make allowances for one area and make it lopsided for the other.  By rights you could have a  end up with a central area in Tier 6 and or a West North Area and West South area, why not, where do you stop.
There should be no North East and South East team leagues at tier 6. The Tay clubs in which most see a problem either fit into the EOS section or the Highland section. If all the Tay clubs were opposed to going to the Highland then under consultation, the sorting of the boundary can intake the area of the teams effect and add them into the EOS.
I guarantee in the system if all junior teams join there will be a honeymoon period and some will lose out, either for bad area, location, bad business plan from the teams themselves and we all know there are many junior teams who do not see any progression in their team and will likely stay in the lower depths of the leagues be it Senior or junior

 I'd therefore advise not coming on and calling people's opinions "nonsense", people who have been in and around this issue for years at club level, then following it up by calling them "ignorant" and "blinkered".

I'd take a step back mate, honestly. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Burnie_man

[Burnie_man]

35 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Its straight forward tayside joins north juniors. Ersjfa if they want in pyramid should be tier 7nconference. If not stay outside. If west want in en Massey they can do if not. Its wosfl and take applications and junior continues out with pyramid with only junior cup winner qualifying for scottish cup

I said a wee while ago that they should start with a quick win first, get the west in.  Personally I think the SFA/EoS/SoS should help set-up a WoSL and leave clubs to apply or not. Give them a choice to stay Junior or join a Senior league as that option already exists in the east for South of Tay clubs.

Then the PWG turn their attention to the East/Tayside/North issue which isn't as pressing or straightforward.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Burnie_man

[Guest]

This is bizarre. You've just confirmed what I wrote was correct with the "appeared to mirror the stance taken by good old TJ" bit.

Yeah and if you can't tell sarcasm from the tone of good old TJ part them it is truly wasted 8-). Let me be clear TJ fed a line to both IM and RP who bought it without checking its validity. Then the juniors all in at tier 6 'done deal' was produced and garnered momentum, again without its validity checked. When its validity was checked in front of the entire EOS delegation at a meeting it was, shall we say, put on the back burner.

As I said, the SFA being misinformed and led down the garden path by TJ doesn't constitute them backing the SJFA, it simply means they couldn't be arsed checking it out before saying it sounds good to them. That probably shows them in a poorer light than anything else from the whole scenario.

So let's not confuse an ill informed plan, led by TJ, IM and RP in the corridors of hampden as the SFA support you and others wish to describe. Let's call it what it is, was and always will be..... A half baked, ill thought out, unchecked plan that was never going to pass, particularly in the east of the country.

[FairWeatherFan]

I'm still left confused by what happened in September last year. Maxwell has his first PWG meeting. It was the last complete PWG meeting as November would be splt into Highland and Lowland. Which suggests the boundary had been discussed on some level and yet months later Maxwell and Petrie still seemed dumbfounded over that particular issue.

It's also the meeting that left Maxwell thinking done deal and the EoS thinking Tayside and West.

[LongTimeLurker]

It suggests the EoS representative at that meeting was viewed by Ian Maxwell as having went along with something he didn't think he was agreeing to as Superbigal describes above probably because there was confusion between the different parties over how the HL:LL boundary entered the equation. What's truly comic from the minutes that appeared on here is that Ian Maxwell doesn't seem to have realised that the EoS could effectively veto it through having to agree with changes to the LL promotion playoff. The question that remains unclear is if Ian Maxwell was played by Tom Johnston, who understood full well all along that the EoS would do that and could then be blamed for the juniors not getting in, or alternatively whether Tom Johnston is so clueless about the procedures after many years of SFA involvement that he really thought there was something called a "board directive" that could force everything through.

Edited September 4, 2019 by LongTimeLurker