Junior football, what is the future?

[FairWeatherFan]

11 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

I think the reason why the whole WRJFA can move enmass is that it would be easier for everyone, organisational way and they already have staff included to run the association.

The whole WRJFA is free to join because it gets the rest of the SJFA to fall into line with the existing senior pyramid with the only compromise being that the current one promotion spot to the Lowland League would become more difficult. But everyone expects additional promotion spots to the Lowland League so that's a temporary hard ship.

On the other hand the SJFA Scottish Cup has to be fitted to the senior calendar to ensure the West Champion is available for the LL promotion play-offs. That means that the North and East Regions will also have their fixture lists set around the senior calendar, or at least won't have the Junior Cup shred fixture lists in the same manner.

The SJFA aren't going to juggle to set of discliplines so will administer the SFA rules since that's what required for the West Region.

The perception would also be that that the West are in the pyramid and so their clubs can gain SFA licensing, but the North and East are still outside so wouldn't have access to it. So the East Region will have to split itself in two and either disappear into the EoSFL and North Region or EoSFL and Tayside set ups. Which in turns takes another 20 or so clubs from the SJFA membership.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

12 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The whole WRJFA is free to join because it gets the rest of the SJFA to fall into line with the existing senior pyramid with the only compromise being that the current one promotion spot to the Lowland League would become more difficult. But everyone expects additional promotion spots to the Lowland League so that's a temporary hard ship.

On the other hand the SJFA Scottish Cup has to be fitted to the senior calendar to ensure the West Champion is available for the LL promotion play-offs. That means that the North and East Regions will also have their fixture lists set around the senior calendar, or at least won't have the Junior Cup shred fixture lists in the same manner.

The SJFA aren't going to juggle to set of discliplines so will administer the SFA rules since that's what required for the West Region.

The perception would also be that that the West are in the pyramid and so their clubs can gain SFA licensing, but the North and East are still outside so wouldn't have access to it. So the East Region will have to split itself in two and either disappear into the EoSFL and North Region or EoSFL and Tayside set ups. Which in turns takes another 20 or so clubs from the SJFA membership.

I get why so many state two east associations but I'm with there should only be one and the reasoning they should be split into two still just doesn't wash as if and when there is a NOS everything will be in order/equal, especially the tayside sorted.  I do admit, in every league, association, one will have more teams than the others and or be stronger thus the EOS if merging with the ERJFA will have a total of 78 teams, including the tayside clubs, while the WOS would have  63 clubs and the North would have 32 clubs with the SOS having 16 clubs, that's without adding the teams from the Highland or lowland leagues. This is obviously uneven but it doesn't not need to be even when you have the straight forward highland league and the Lowland league.  As you said, promotion and relegation should be increase and probably will.     The fixture lists will obviously have to get sorted for the Scottish Cup etc but you cant sort it until the start of the year once you know who the members are and the none members but still on the pyramid system, will they go into another Scottish cup which just might include all teams from Tier 6 and lower.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

Sorry folks if its already listed but who are the people at the PWG meetings and what are their roles, ie. SFA representative, any junior representative, EOS n SOS reps etc..

How many at the meetings and are the minutes of the meeting made public.

 

 

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Sorry folks if its already listed but who are the people at the PWG meetings and what are their roles, ie. SFA representative, any junior representative, EOS n SOS reps etc..

How many at the meetings and are the minutes of the meeting made public.

They aren't public. Only two sets were released on here due to people having access to them from their own sources. Those were the Lowland Sub Group PWG meetings of November 2018 and January 2019

Wednesday 14 November 2018

Attendance: Ian Maxwell (CE, Scottish Fa) - IM,  Laura Dougan (Head of football Governance Scottish FA) -  LD,  Sandy Bryson (Head of Registrations Dept Scottish FA)-SB, Vicki McMullan (Disciplinary Dept Manager & Judicial Panel Secretary Scottish FA)-VM, Iain McQueen (Asst Secretary/Treasurer SJFA)-IMcQ, Tom Johnston (Secretary SJFA)-TJ, George Fraser (Chairman SLFL)-GF,  Andrew Renwick (Vice-President EOSFA)-AR, John Greenhorn (Secretary EOSFA)-JG, Richard Osborne (Secretary  Southern Counties FA)-RO.

Wednesday 9 January 2019
Attendance: Ian Maxwell (Chief Executive, Scottish FA) - IM, Laura Dougan (Head of Football Governance, Scottish FA) - LD, Sandy Bryson (Head of Registrations Department, Scottish FA) - SB, Vicki McMullan (Disciplinary Department Manager & Judicial Panel Secretary, Scottish FA) - VM, Tom Johnston (Secretary, Scottish Junior FA) - TJ, George Fraser (Chairman, Scottish Lowland Football League) - GF, Andrew Renwick (Vice-President, East of Scotland FA) - AR, John Greenhorn (Secretary, East of Scotland FA) - JG, Richard Osborne (Secretary, Southern Counties FA) - RO.

Also something that was never noted in the minutes but has been in an email relating to a PWG in May 2018 meeting was that the HFL and SoS reps joined by conference call. So in those November and January minutes it's not clear if any members also joined by conference call which may have limited their participation.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

4 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

They aren't public. Only two sets were released on here due to people having access to them from their own sources. Those were the Lowland Sub Group PWG meetings of November 2018 and January 2019

Wednesday 14 November 2018

Attendance: Ian Maxwell (CE, Scottish Fa) - IM,  Laura Dougan (Head of football Governance Scottish FA) -  LD,  Sandy Bryson (Head of Registrations Dept Scottish FA)-SB, Vicki McMullan (Disciplinary Dept Manager & Judicial Panel Secretary Scottish FA)-VM, Iain McQueen (Asst Secretary/Treasurer SJFA)-IMcQ, Tom Johnston (Secretary SJFA)-TJ, George Fraser (Chairman SLFL)-GF,  Andrew Renwick (Vice-President EOSFA)-AR, John Greenhorn (Secretary EOSFA)-JG, Richard Osborne (Secretary  Southern Counties FA)-RO.

Wednesday 9 January 2019
Attendance: Ian Maxwell (Chief Executive, Scottish FA) - IM, Laura Dougan (Head of Football Governance, Scottish FA) - LD, Sandy Bryson (Head of Registrations Department, Scottish FA) - SB, Vicki McMullan (Disciplinary Department Manager & Judicial Panel Secretary, Scottish FA) - VM, Tom Johnston (Secretary, Scottish Junior FA) - TJ, George Fraser (Chairman, Scottish Lowland Football League) - GF, Andrew Renwick (Vice-President, East of Scotland FA) - AR, John Greenhorn (Secretary, East of Scotland FA) - JG, Richard Osborne (Secretary, Southern Counties FA) - RO.

Also something that was never noted in the minutes but has been in an email relating to a PWG in May 2018 meeting was that the HFL and SoS reps joined by conference call. So in those November and January minutes it's not clear if any members also joined by conference call which may have limited their participation.

Thank you fairweatherfan, really appreciated  (thumb)

Why were the Southern Counties rep there, are they supposed to be the impartial/objective observer

Edited September 6, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Robert James]

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The whole WRJFA is free to join because it gets the rest of the SJFA to fall into line with the existing senior pyramid with the only compromise being that the current one promotion spot to the Lowland League would become more difficult. But everyone expects additional promotion spots to the Lowland League so that's a temporary hard ship.

On the other hand the SJFA Scottish Cup has to be fitted to the senior calendar to ensure the West Champion is available for the LL promotion play-offs. That means that the North and East Regions will also have their fixture lists set around the senior calendar, or at least won't have the Junior Cup shred fixture lists in the same manner.

The SJFA aren't going to juggle to set of discliplines so will administer the SFA rules since that's what required for the West Region.

The perception would also be that that the West are in the pyramid and so their clubs can gain SFA licensing, but the North and East are still outside so wouldn't have access to it. So the East Region will have to split itself in two and either disappear into the EoSFL and North Region or EoSFL and Tayside set ups. Which in turns takes another 20 or so clubs from the SJFA membership.

Licensing will not happen overnight for West Clubs, as not many of them have floodlights, which are mandatory at Tier 5. This means that most are not yet eligible for promotion to the Lowland League. As they are not currently "committed to the pyramid", I guess they will  need to fit in with the newly proposed SFA timescale for licensing (?)

Edited September 6, 2019 by Robert James
typo error

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Thank you fairweatherfan, really appreciated  (thumb)

Why were the Southern Counties rep there, are they supposed to be the impartial/objective observer

Southern Counties is basically the SOSFL. In the same way the EoSFA is the EOSFL.

[Salvo Montalbano]

I keep seeing people saying that the WRSJFA should just port over as-is, but given the opposition to the pyramid as a concept by some Junior committee men, I'm starting to think that a WOS League is the only way to go. It would allow those Junior clubs who are vehemently against the pyramid and senior football to stay Junior and there would be some symmetry with the East where there is a Senior League with many former Junior clubs in the pyramid and a Junior set up for those who don't want to join. A clear understanding that any clubs who don't want to join now (for both East and West) can do so at a later date but have to join at the lowest rung would get a few clubs thinking but I think forcing some West Junior clubs into the pyramid against their will would be counterproductive. It still leaves the North as the big problem, but without a Lochee or someone asking the questions about senior football access, it doesn't seem a priority at the moment.

[Guest]

I agree with most of what is said here except the boundaries.

Why have boundaries when teams can apply to EOS and or SOS and not in their areas, what is the definitive area covered by the SOS and the EOS.
You need boundaries sorted for all of Scotland so that every team know what league they will be in, in each tier.
As I've stated before We have the Highland and Lowland leagues at Tier 5, (basically splitting the country in half with an boundary.
The should there just be a EOS, SOS, NOS and a WOS, dividing the country into four areas.
Then the tiers lower down which would be 7 and 8 are then put into district areas by their associations.

As said I agree with most of what you said but its the squabbling and power struggles that is making it hard to happen in what you state.
There must be a reason why the NRJFA don't want to come in at Tier 6, why ? 
The same for the WRJFA not coming in at tier 6, was this due to the SJFA saying no unless the ERJFA join as well, I seriously think its so stupid that there isn't a WOS running already.
 

The problem in adding definitive boundaries below the LL (I assume you mean East, West and South) is that teams who lie either on the line or say 5 miles the wrong way face being put in a box and not allowed to get out of it.

This would affect the centrally based teams when thinking about the east/west divide (dunipace fell into west juniors and camelon into the east yet they are literally 5 miles apart and can be seen as local to each other)

The same would be the case for the South split in the Lowland area, if we do that you could be denying teams a good local rivalry that pits their clubs against one another.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

1 hour ago, G4Mac said:

The problem in adding definitive boundaries below the LL (I assume you mean East, West and South) is that teams who lie either on the line or say 5 miles the wrong way face being put in a box and not allowed to get out of it.

This would affect the centrally based teams when thinking about the east/west divide (dunipace fell into west juniors and camelon into the east yet they are literally 5 miles apart and can be seen as local to each other)

The same would be the case for the South split in the Lowland area, if we do that you could be denying teams a good local rivalry that pits their clubs against one another.

'm totally with it and understand the point regarding putting in a box and I did mention previously that even though there is definitive borders, teams who are within, say a 5 mile radius of the borders could change, just like Tweedmouth who are in England but in the EOS.

A team could be 3 mile inside a border but the nearest team to them in their right border is at least 20 miles away or most of the teams they play are 30 miles etc.. but in the next boundary most teams could be 5 miles away so yeah I'm all for them being allowed to drop into the other border but having definitive borders is good meaning everyone knows the situation of location throughout the country and their Association location 

I had already asked about Dunipace and was contacted by a few supporters and one committee person who said that everyone at Dunipace prefer to be in the EOS even though they were in the West and old central for years, ffs I played against them 30 odd year ago in the old central so I was surprised to  find out they are happy at the EOS infact stating they are so glad they changed. ( I was told they weren't originally forced to go to the West/Central all those years ago but choose at the time to go).

A definitive boundary should be made throughout but it also need to be a consultation group to get it right, contacting clubs etc...  We are all doing this for the betterment of Scottish football as a whole. Well we should be but we all know there are little power struggles on the pyramid situation from teams, to committee to associations and their staff etc..

Edited September 7, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Bestsinceslicebread]

9 hours ago, Robert James said:

Licensing will not happen overnight for West Clubs, as not many of them have floodlights, which are mandatory at Tier 5. This means that most are not yet eligible for promotion to the Lowland League. As they are not currently "committed to the pyramid", I guess they will  need to fit in with the newly proposed SFA timescale for licensing (?)

Lets say there are 63 WEST teams who will join the WOS and of those only 10 have floodlights, SO the SFA just stop them all from coming enmass leaving the pyramid to stay the way it is, moving it back years from progressing but on the other hand, or just allow the 10 teams to join or lets say the SFA allow all these teams to join as none will be in tier 5 the first year but if any of them win the league to go to Tier 5, lowland league but do not have floodlights then the place goes to the next team under them who does have floodlights.  I'd rather have that scenario that leaving everyone out.

I think once they all join, including ERJFA and the NRJFA they will benefit and eventually want to get the lights in quickly as there is so many benefits to being in the pyramid system, (that's obviously me surmising here)

Edited September 7, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Bestsinceslicebread]

1 hour ago, Salvo Montalbano said:

I keep seeing people saying that the WRSJFA should just port over as-is, but given the opposition to the pyramid as a concept by some Junior committee men, I'm starting to think that a WOS League is the only way to go. It would allow those Junior clubs who are vehemently against the pyramid and senior football to stay Junior and there would be some symmetry with the East where there is a Senior League with many former Junior clubs in the pyramid and a Junior set up for those who don't want to join. A clear understanding that any clubs who don't want to join now (for both East and West) can do so at a later date but have to join at the lowest rung would get a few clubs thinking but I think forcing some West Junior clubs into the pyramid against their will would be counterproductive. It still leaves the North as the big problem, but without a Lochee or someone asking the questions about senior football access, it doesn't seem a priority at the moment.

Been reading about the pyramid system, the pros and cons and without doubt the WOS is imperative as you will see movement on the East and North if a WOS is in operation.   In regards to forcing west clubs to join, I don't believe there are any west clubs being forced.  There was a vote to join enmass and think every team voted but you must know that there are teams out there where the committees are stagnant, or just fekcing shit or no good or don't have vision.   Some are just voting to go with the WRJFA cause they don't have a clue.  I could name at least 5 West clubs whom I spoke to at least 2 committee members from each club who don't  know anything about the pyramid system and how it works and these are the people in charge for the future of their clubs. 

If you knew about bad deals some of these clubs did with buying grounds, the attitude to committee men about Astro pitches, their attitude to youth teams and the potential of having a youth academies then you would be shocked so don't be surprised if they decide to stay, some out of stubbornness, what chance has these clubs of continuing in the future.  What I will say, in 20/30 years time when the younger generations are older and joining the committees of teams and those people are out of the committee, you will see different attitude and more clearer visions for the clubs. its just progression

Edited September 7, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Dev]

2 hours ago, Salvo Montalbano said:

I keep seeing people saying that the WRSJFA should just port over as-is, but given the opposition to the pyramid as a concept by some Junior committee men, I'm starting to think that a WOS League is the only way to go. It would allow those Junior clubs who are vehemently against the pyramid and senior football to stay Junior and there would be some symmetry with the East where there is a Senior League with many former Junior clubs in the pyramid and a Junior set up for those who don't want to join. A clear understanding that any clubs who don't want to join now (for both East and West) can do so at a later date but have to join at the lowest rung would get a few clubs thinking but I think forcing some West Junior clubs into the pyramid against their will would be counterproductive. It still leaves the North as the big problem, but without a Lochee or someone asking the questions about senior football access, it doesn't seem a priority at the moment.

I agree that Junior clubs shouldn't be forced into "senior" leagues. However, a WoS should be set up so that West Junior clubs can make the move if they wish to do so. Anyone who moves thereafter goes to the bottom of the ladder. This may sound unfair on those clubs which aren't prepared at this stage to move to the seniors. However, as they won't need to be licenced, there won't be much to do to make the grade so surely they could be accepted and given some time to adjust within the senior set-up? Those who don't wish to go senior can stay Junior but have the door left permanently open to them, on an individual club basis, should they choose to go senior in future. 

In the north the situation is really simple. It is about providing links to the HFL. There could quickly be three feeder leagues at Tier 6 i.e. Tayside, North Juniors and NCL. If there is no compulsory promotion then these clubs could happily stay just where they are for ever more. However, they would all have the OPPORTUNITY to move up if they ever wished to, provided they finished in a promotion position in their league.

This would have the existing North of Tay Bridge clubs rightly claiming that they are being cut off from the Fife and Lothian clubs which are in the ERJFS leagues. However, only a few of these are of ERJFA top division standard anyway - so there wouldn't be many to miss! All matches would become local derbies - much like it is now! Really there would be no issue at all. It may even make the very top clubs ambitious to get licences and to move up in order to play better clubs e.g. Fraserburgh, Brora etc. This would force the weakest HFL clubs down a Tier but they would have the right to return if they were in a promotion position at Tier 6. The Tayside clubs moving up to Tier 5 would be licenced and would gain annual SFA Cup fees and SFA Associate Membership income. Not a small amount for such clubs each season.

In the east the South of Tay Bridge ERJFA clubs seem content just where they are, with reduced travelling now that the leagues are split north/south. If any wish to apply to the existing senior league in the area then they are free to do so. They would need to be ready to start on the bottom rung of the ladder - although next season it might be still possible to come in at Tier 7.

At the end of the day clubs can make up their own minds but there should be the opportunity to play locally at senior SFA level. The north, east and south are already covered so there needs to be a western league for clubs in that area. The SFA has the power to make that happen but needs to get sensible. Maybe RP and IM, much maligned as they have been on this forum, are the boys to do it? We shall see. They must have learned a thing or two in the past twelve months!

All Junior clubs (and any Amateur/Juvenile/Youth clubs) which already meet the Licencing criteria or are within reach of it would be brave to stay Junior and miss out on the annual cash benefits of entry into the SFA Cup and the annual receipt of moneys just from being Associate Members of the SFA. 

 

[Burnie_man]

10 minutes ago, Dev said:

I agree that Junior clubs shouldn't be forced into "senior" leagues. However, a WoS should be set up so that West Junior clubs can make the move if they wish to do so. Anyone who moves thereafter goes to the bottom of the ladder. This may sound unfair on those clubs which aren't prepared at this stage to move to the seniors. However, as they won't need to be licenced, there won't be much to do to make the grade so surely they could be accepted and given some time to adjust within the senior set-up? Those who don't wish to go senior can stay Junior but have the door left permanently open to them, on an individual club basis, should they choose to go senior in future. 

In the north the situation is really simple. It is about providing links to the HFL. There could quickly be three feeder leagues at Tier 6 i.e. Tayside, North Juniors and NCL. If there is no compulsory promotion then these clubs could happily stay just where they are for ever more. However, they would all have the OPPORTUNITY to move up if they ever wished to, provided they finished in a promotion position in their league.

This would have the existing North of Tay Bridge clubs rightly claiming that they are being cut off from the Fife and Lothian clubs which are in the ERJFS leagues. However, only a few of these are of ERJFA top division standard anyway - so there wouldn't be many to miss! All matches would become local derbies - much like it is now! Really there would be no issue at all. It may even make the very top clubs ambitious to get licences and to move up in order to play better clubs e.g. Fraserburgh, Brora etc. This would force the weakest HFL clubs down a Tier but they would have the right to return if they were in a promotion position at Tier 6. The Tayside clubs moving up to Tier 5 would be licenced and would gain annual SFA Cup fees and SFA Associate Membership income. Not a small amount for such clubs each season.

In the east the South of Tay Bridge ERJFA clubs seem content just where they are, with reduced travelling now that the leagues are split north/south. If any wish to apply to the existing senior league in the area then they are free to do so. They would need to be ready to start on the bottom rung of the ladder - although next season it might be still possible to come in at Tier 7.

At the end of the day clubs can make up their own minds but there should be the opportunity to play locally at senior SFA level. The north, east and south are already covered so there needs to be a western league for clubs in that area. The SFA has the power to make that happen but needs to get sensible. Maybe RP and IM, much maligned as they have been on this forum, are the boys to do it? We shall see. They must have learned a thing or two in the past twelve months!

All Junior clubs (and any Amateur/Juvenile/Youth clubs) which already meet the Licencing criteria or are within reach of it would be brave to stay Junior and miss out on the annual cash benefits of entry into the SFA Cup and the annual receipt of moneys just from being Associate Members of the SFA. 

 

As I have said previously, clubs in the west who want to go senior, and who are dubious about whether the SJFA can deliver it, should be having conversations now amongst themselves, the SFA, and even the EoS/SoS about the setting-up of an independent WoSFL.

Waiting on the SFA to do this off their own back will lead to nothing, they need to know first that there is a demand. They will still be of the attitude that they want to bring in the SJFA in some form (we already know that won't work in the east), but how long that takes is anyone's guess due to the hurdles that need to be overcome.

[Guest]

I think best since has summed the problem up well though. There are multiple west region clubs whose committee men have no understanding of what the pyramid is all about and are happy to remain as they are. There are some who actively have no plans to move over. There are those who are so loyal to the sjfa they believe everything tj tells them. And there are those who want to move over.

The west as a structure is easy to move. However I don't believe it will happen without every club moving en masse as there probably isn't enough interest for clubs to up and move themselves. Which is surprising as clubs voted to join the pyramid.

[Arthurlie1981]

I think best since has summed the problem up well though. There are multiple west region clubs whose committee men have no understanding of what the pyramid is all about and are happy to remain as they are. There are some who actively have no plans to move over. There are those who are so loyal to the sjfa they believe everything tj tells them. And there are those who want to move over.

The west as a structure is easy to move. However I don't believe it will happen without every club moving en masse as there probably isn't enough interest for clubs to up and move themselves. Which is surprising as clubs voted to join the pyramid.

I think the reason is that moving to a brand new setup is the issue with management committee, fixture lists, cup competitions etc needed. I’m not saying it’s right but I believe it will be a factor for some clubs. There was a suggestion made earlier on that if the SFA appointed a management committee for the first season allowing for new people to come forward then this might allay some of those fears.

It’s all conjecture until the next PWG meeting is held and then things might become clearer on what direction we are travelling.

[Ginaro]

On 05/09/2019 at 13:00, TheLad said:

Prediction for May 2020.

The PWG, after a few half hearted meetings which started in November 2019 and promised much, with teams in East and West convinced they were definitely in the pyramid, closes for the summer just unable to reach agreement for season 2020/21.

The teams in the west will have waited all season for someone to come up with a proposal for a WOS league and lay down the foundations. Unfortunately no big team took the plunge so the others waited. No one in the SJFA or SFA made the moves, as they have no motivation to and so nothing happened.

No doubt it'll come back to the thing that got the ball rolling in the east - licensing. If for example Clydebank were in a licence-ready position now I think things would be different, if a few other clubs are also close to a licence then it might provide the impetus needed for a WOS league.

On 07/09/2019 at 19:36, Arthurlie1981 said:

I think the reason is that moving to a brand new setup is the issue with management committee, fixture lists, cup competitions etc needed. I’m not saying it’s right but I believe it will be a factor for some clubs. There was a suggestion made earlier on that if the SFA appointed a management committee for the first season allowing for new people to come forward then this might allay some of those fears.

Management committee would surely come from the clubs (like it does just now with all of the other leagues), probably fewer cup competitions - South Challenge Cup, League Cup, could maybe do a west cup with the SOS. The EOS offered previously to help get things started in the west, guessing they could help with fixtures to begin with if Kennie remains Junior. Disciplinary already running to the senior rules.

And if it's a new setup with say 12-16 clubs, that's probably easier to manage than other leagues.

[TFW]

If you knew about bad deals some of these clubs did with buying grounds, the attitude to committee men about Astro pitches, their attitude to youth teams and the potential of having a youth academies then you would be shocked so don't be surprised if they decide to stay, some out of stubbornness, what chance has these clubs of continuing in the future.  What I will say, in 20/30 years time when the younger generations are older and joining the committees of teams and those people are out of the committee, you will see different attitude and more clearer visions for the clubs. its just progression

There's a reason England banned the use of artificial pitches in 1995. They're awful, and have no place in the game. Yes, I know the arguments about being able to be used 365 days per year and community involvement etc, but they are the dregs in terms of being able to play on them. The only reason we have them in Scotland isn't the weather but a lack of finance from other sources, ie SKY. There's no disguising the fact that they are very much second rate in relation to their grassy counterparts. I've yet to meet ant football fan who doesn't agree with that assertion.

We are also very early on into their history, and the extent of injuries - especially longer term ones - are still yet to be really identified. In short, we have them in Scotland because we have a second rate game, and administration, from the very top down into the non league set up.

Viva grass!

[FairWeatherFan]

30 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

No doubt it'll come back to the thing that got the ball rolling in the east - licensing. If for example Clydebank were in a licence-ready position now I think things would be different, if a few other clubs are also close to a licence then it might provide the impetus needed for a WOS league.

You've already had two clubs try to start the licensing process. There are those that are obviously taking it seriously.

If there's no movement and they stay locked out of access to licensing, unlike LL and East clubs, it might be enough to breakaway.

[drs]

28 minutes ago, TFW said:

If you knew about bad deals some of these clubs did with buying grounds, the attitude to committee men about Astro pitches, their attitude to youth teams and the potential of having a youth academies then you would be shocked so don't be surprised if they decide to stay, some out of stubbornness, what chance has these clubs of continuing in the future.  What I will say, in 20/30 years time when the younger generations are older and joining the committees of teams and those people are out of the committee, you will see different attitude and more clearer visions for the clubs. its just progression

There's a reason England banned the use of artificial pitches in 1995. They're awful, and have no place in the game. Yes, I know the arguments about being able to be used 365 days per year and community involvement etc, but they are the dregs in terms of being able to play on them. The only reason we have them in Scotland isn't the weather but a lack of finance from other sources, ie SKY. There's no disguising the fact that they are very much second rate in relation to their grassy counterparts. I've yet to meet ant football fan who doesn't agree with that assertion.

We are also very early on into their history, and the extent of injuries - especially longer term ones - are still yet to be really identified. In short, we have them in Scotland because we have a second rate game, and administration, from the very top down into the non league set up.

Viva grass!

Nonsense - plenty of people prefer artificial, most players under 25 will have grown up playing on it more than grass. The problem is there have been some horrific artificial pitches that were used for far longer than their lifespan or they have not been maintained appropriately - Petershill was an abomination for a couple of years.

I played on artificial pitches regularly over 30 years ago and it never did me any harm long term and having artificial pitches all over the country helped take Iceland to the most recent World Cup and European Championships whilst we sat at home and bemoaned our lack of progress on and off the pitch. 

People want to moan about progress as they are stuck in the past - its same reason why the Junior game is being left behind by the senior leagues.