Junior football, what is the future?

[Raven]

16 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The big problem for any ex-junior WoS club comittee thinking of steering clear of the SJC was how to explain to a managerial team and a dressing room full of players that they won't be playing any games on certain Saturdays early in the season because the club didn't enter what until very recently was by far the most prestigious cup in Scottish nonleague circles. Awkward doesn't even begin to describe what that conversation could be like.

The Sunday Mail article makes it clear that the numbers should be there now for non-SJC participants to put together a viable alternative cup to fill up those Saturdays, so that should make it a lot easier for more WoS clubs, who understand that the SCC is now going to be much stronger than the SJC in competitive terms, to decide to steer clear and avoid a long trek to somewhere like Forres to play in front of the proverbial two men and a dug.

I'll find it odd, at least once the new format beds in, not to have a national cup competition, even if the SCC is stronger.

[LongTimeLurker]

10 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

I really think your over estimating that players will be as misty eyed over the cup as you are...

^^^Did this guy even read my post:

20 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

...so that should make it a lot easier for more WoS clubs, who understand that the SCC is now going to be much stronger than the SJC in competitive terms, to decide to steer clear and avoid a long trek to somewhere like Forres to play in front of the proverbial two men and a dug.

I was quite clearly pointing out why more WoS clubs are highly likely to decide to steer clear of the SJC at this point. 

[Andy groundhopper]

Being a casual observer,could someone explain - clubs need or have to install floodlights at various levels to meet grading/licensing - but there seems to be very few floodlit matches from the spfl downwards, seems a needless expense to clubs. Guess all cups will continue in varying guises, lesser, different clubs taking part.

[Hillonearth]

1 hour ago, tellyboy said:

In the Sunday Mail today. 4 West Of Scotland League teams have declared they won’t be entering the Junior Cup our Association so to concentrate on the new set up. Clydebank Kilwinning  Cambuslang and Darvel. Could this see a flood of more teams and the end of the trophy? 

They won't be the only ones not to enter...of that I'm certain. There will be a good number that will though, assuming the vote goes the way that will allow them to.

Rule of thumb I'm using is looking at the various club statements when they applied to the WoSFL...especially the later and perhaps more reluctant ones who in some cases prioritised mentioning they were staying in the SJFA and continuing to play in the SJC almost before they made mention of the fact they were applying to a new league.

A significant proportion made no mention whatsoever of either of those factors though, which would perhaps suggest ambivalence towards them at best.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Hillonearth

[LongTimeLurker]

9 minutes ago, Raven said:

I'll find it odd, at least once the new format beds in, not to have a national cup competition, even if the SCC is stronger.

Agree with that but if the HL, LL and EoS have no interest in having a national competition then as things stand at the moment the SJC is going to quite quickly lose its lustre as being the "holy grail".

[Ray Patterson]

1 minute ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Being a casual observer,could someone explain - clubs need or have to install floodlights at various levels to meet grading/licensing - but there seems to be very few floodlit matches from the spfl downwards, seems a needless expense to clubs. Guess all cups will continue in varying guises, lesser, different clubs taking part.

Floodlights are now a requirement for an SFA Club License, which itself is a requirement to play in Tier 5 and above.

Floodlights are not required for Tier 6 - WoS, EoS or SoS - but a small amount of funding is available to clubs £2,500 IIRC in order to improve facilities to gain a License which also provides a club with SFA membership and an automatic Scottish Cup Berth.

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Being a casual observer,could someone explain - clubs need or have to install floodlights at various levels to meet grading/licensing - but there seems to be very few floodlit matches from the spfl downwards, seems a needless expense to clubs. Guess all cups will continue in varying guises, lesser, different clubs taking part.

Licensing only required floodlights from 2019.

Since 2013 most of the regional leagues have increased league sizes to 16 and put a priority on league games over cups and a full fixture list.

This has seen the increased need so that leagues are completed on schedule. Instead of waiting to the end of the season and cramming in 3-4 games in a week when it's lighter.

[glensmad]

Because it is blindingly obvious commonsense that SJC fixtures like Auchinleck Talbot vs Buchanhaven Hearts are not going to be played on a weeknight.

WoSFL, SCC and WoS League Cup fixtures will all take priority over the SJC in terms of fixture scheduling.

[LongTimeLurker]

...which is why there can't be any replays. The games will still need to be on Saturdays if west to north travel is involved.

[Andy groundhopper]

Thanks,was just thinking of a normal season starting in Aug then playing sat - Tues for maybe 2months to clear a few matches before a winter break and bad weather take their toll. Hopefully next season will progress well and we can all support the clubs as they rebuild financially.

[glensmad]

...which is why there can't be any replays. The games will still need to be on Saturdays if west to north travel is involved.

They may just need to wait till there's a gap in the schedule then.

[FairWeatherFan]

10 minutes ago, glensmad said:

41 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Because it is blindingly obvious commonsense that SJC fixtures like Auchinleck Talbot vs Buchanhaven Hearts are not going to be played on a weeknight.

WoSFL, SCC and WoS League Cup fixtures will all take priority over the SJC in terms of fixture scheduling.

And Scottish Cup going forward. Auchinleck Talbot look like they'd be the only ex-Junior in any 2020-21 edition, but we know there should be quite a few more in 2021-22 all goes well.

[glensmad]

And Scottish Cup going forward. Auchinleck Talbot look like they'd be the only ex-Junior in any 2020-21 edition, but we know there should be quite a few more in 2021-22 all goes well.

Girvan will likely be in there too.

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, glensmad said:

4 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

And Scottish Cup going forward. Auchinleck Talbot look like they'd be the only ex-Junior in any 2020-21 edition, but we know there should be quite a few more in 2021-22 all goes well.

Girvan will likely be in there too.

Totally forgot about them.

[LongTimeLurker]

2 minutes ago, glensmad said:

12 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

...which is why there can't be any replays. The games will still need to be on Saturdays if west to north travel is involved.

They may just need to wait till there's a gap in the schedule then.

If a full WoS league season schedule is going to be provided and the SJC is still going to be accomodated in a national format there will have to be dedicated Saturdays set aside for the early rounds of the SJC. Numbers need to be whittled down to something manageable that can be handled more flexibly after the league season is decided.

It will have to be done early enough in the season (yes COVID19 might make this impossible for 2020-21) so that weather related postponements are unlikely. Non-SJC participants in the WoS will need an alternative competition to fill those Saturdays. That's where our friend Alex Jack probably enters the fray because something along those lines in the west leads to a playoff against east and south winners and possible 2021-22 Scottish Cup entry hence providing something that's clearly worth competing for as an alternative to TJ's "holy grail".

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

If a full WoS league season schedule is going to be provided and the SJC is still going to be accomodated in a national format there will have to be dedicated Saturdays set aside for the early rounds of the SJC. Numbers need to be whittled down to something manageable that can be handled more flexibly after the league season is decided.
It will have to be done early enough in the season (yes COVID19 might make this impossible for 2020-21) so that weather related postponements are unlikely. Non-SJC participants in the WoS will need an alternative competition to fill those Saturdays. That's where our friend Alex Jack probably enters the fray because something along those lines in the west leads to a playoff against east and south winners and possible 2021-22 Scottish Cup entry hence providing something that's clearly worth competing for as an alternative to TJ's "holy grail".

Why should the junior cup be allocated saturdays, if clubs cant play midweek then they should have stayed junior instead of joining a new senior league, too bad too sad enjoy yer trips on a tuesday night to whichever junior club is closest to Elgin.

[parsforlife]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Because it is blindingly obvious commonsense that SJC fixtures like Auchinleck Talbot vs Buchanhaven Hearts are not going to be played on a weeknight.

That’s a difficulty for the SJFA to solve not the WOSFL or the joint working groups they will be part of.   It is up for the SJFA to fit their fixtures around the senior fixtures, and not for senior calendar to give then gaps to do so. 

31 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

...which is why there can't be any replays. The games will still need to be on Saturdays if west to north travel is involved.

And postponements? When do you play them, cos sure as hell your not postponing other fixtures to allow another attempt on a Saturday. 

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, parsforlife said:

That’s a difficulty for the SJFA to solve not the WOSFL or the joint working groups they will be part of.   It is up for the SJFA to fit their fixtures around the senior fixtures, and not for senior calendar to give then gaps to do so. 

And postponements? When do you play them, cos sure as hell your not postponing other fixtures to allow another attempt on a Saturday. 

Postponements are an easy solve. You just move them to the date of the next round, or if by agreement at some point earlier. That's basically what every other cup does, like the SCC.

Its just another thing that chips away at the prestige of the Junior Cup though.

[glensmad]

You forget that the Scottish Junior Cup is not going to be scheduled by the WoSFL fixture scheduler. It is not their tournament.

[parsforlife]

Just now, FairWeatherFan said:

Postponements are an easy solve. You just move them to the date of the next round, or if by agreement at some point earlier. That's basically what every other cup does, like the SCC.

Its just another thing that chips away at the prestige of the Junior Cup though.

Yes.  But whilst SCC etc go onto the next available date the junior cup will find that more difficult because any other postponed games will be played on these dates first.