Junior football, what is the future?

[Burnie_man]

Transfer window shut in the East.

[Black & Red Socks]

Edited to assist the pyramid afficianos understand what they are REALLY joining. Not saying to do or do not, just KNOW!
Maybe Hans Christain Andersen was ahead of his time
 

As has already been intimated, perhaps you should introduce a personal rule “don’t post on P&B if I’ve had too much beer”.

[Robert James]

4 hours ago, Dreghorn said:

They can’t all fit into the Eof S league without creating another lower division.

Existing clubs will have priority over incoming sides.  If only 2 clubs are promoted at the end on next season and subsequently it may take some time for clubs to make progress upwards towards the Lowlands League.

My concern is that this will be in the hands of the SFA or worse still involve the sjfa May have input!

Any new system will not be introduced unreliable 2019.  Leaves a question as to what happens to the clubs who have applied this year.

Not again please.   More FAKE news.

The EoS has never said that "existing clubs will have priority over incoming sides."  The ex Junior clubs,  who join will be fully consulted about the league format for 2018/19, alongside existing member clubs. Wait for the (official) facts, and leave FAKE news to people who like stirring things up.....please.  

Very surprising that this 'news' is coming from a Linlithgow Rose fan, who clearly has no knowledge of the EoS. 

[GordonS]

On 3/30/2018 at 13:28, ONeils40yarder said:

I've followed Junior football since I was a kid, although not regularly anymore due to other commitments. For the life of me, I can't understand why any Junior club would vote 'against' the notion of a complete pyramid. Fixture lists being compiled properly, sponsorship, more exposure on a national level, a degree of professionalism trying to increase and maintain standards.

 

If done correctly, the bigger clubs such as Talbot and Linlithgow, will still be the 'big fish in the wee pond', with the chance of 'national level silverware' each season, if the Scottish Junior Cup is renamed the 'SFA non-league cup' or something, similar to that to be found in the FA Vase down South. 

The smaller clubs, lacking in facilities, such as my local team, Bellshill Athletic, would find their own level within the pyramid, just the same as they've found their current level in the Juniors...but with a far bigger incentive to actually improve their lot and even aim for a license in years down the line, with a bit of ambition and possible financial gains. I see Athletic voted against it, and that disappoints me.

 

The whole discussion, to me, sums up Scottish society in a way, complete and total negativity from some for no other possible reason than being feart of any type of change.

I can give you my own answer as to why I have reservations.

The issue here has nothing to do with ambition, or a fear of change. The issue is what do you go to the football for? The priorities for me are enjoyment, and following my local team. I'd like them to win every week but if that was my main priority I'd be watching Celtic - or Barca on the telly, like half the kids in Scotland.

I grew up near Hampden and I've followed Queen's Park ever since. 18 years ago I moved to Linlithgow and started watching the Rose occasionally. At some point I became hooked and they're now my one and only. The experience of being a fan of a bigger Junior team is far, far better than being a fan of a team in SPFL1 & 2. I've been to every league ground and about 60 other Scottish grounds so I'm reasonably well placed to have an opinion. 

I pay half as much for admission (and nothing at all for my kids), don't face the same opposition four times a season, don't have nationwide travel (which seems nuts to me below full-time level), pay much less for generally better food and drinks, can bring cans and bottles of juice into the ground, don't get my bag searched, can come in at half-time for nothing, can nip out at half time to the local shop (or even home to use the loo) and don't have segregation (not common in SPFL1/2 but recently saw a dozen Albion Rovers fans guarded by 4 stewards at Stranraer). The costs and restrictions on SPFL clubs, plus the drudgery of a nationwide league playing each other 4 times (6 if you meet in a play off, more if you meet in the cups too) is deeply unappealing. 

I'd love Linlithgow Rose to be in a Lowland League with the best that division currently has, like Spartans, East Stirling and even EK, along with the likes of Talbot and Pollok. That league would be very tasty. But I wouldn't want them to go beyond that. If you ask Brora and Buckie Thistle fans, they didn't want to get promoted recently either.

My attitude to the pyramid would change in a heartbeat if SPFL1 & 2 merged with the HFL and the LL to create two regionalised leagues of 18-20 teams (with others bumped down a tier), but the fans of SPFL clubs much prefer the structure the way it is - if they didn't, the presumably wouldn't have become fans of those clubs in the first place.

As for my view now, I have reservations but there's safety in moving into the pyramid with the rest of the Juniors as it hugely reduces the chances of going into Tier 4. Rose haven't been great for a couple of years, but a few years ago they would have gone through the LL like a dose of salts. The standard in the LL has improved and there's a pretty low risk of going up if the other big Junior clubs are there too.  So I'm for joining if everyone else does, but if it didn't happen I'd be fine with that.

[LongTimeLurker]

11 hours ago, Garret Deasy said:

Edited to assist the pyramid afficianos understand what they are REALLY joining. Not saying to do or do not, just KNOW!

Maybe Hans Christain Andersen was ahead of his time

 

Here's why the SFA would need to take out a loan from the Bank of Scotland at the moment:

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/scotland/queen-s-park-agree-deal-to-sell-hampden-to-sfa-reports-1-4716180

Not sure what buying Hampden has to do with the pyramid. The pressure to open up the national divisions to entry from below came from the need to comply with UEFA statutes more than anything else. 

[Sergeant Wilson]

6 hours ago, GordonS said:

I can give you my own answer as to why I have reservations.

The issue here has nothing to do with ambition, or a fear of change. The issue is what do you go to the football for? The priorities for me are enjoyment, and following my local team. I'd like them to win every week but if that was my main priority I'd be watching Celtic - or Barca on the telly, like half the kids in Scotland.

I grew up near Hampden and I've followed Queen's Park ever since. 18 years ago I moved to Linlithgow and started watching the Rose occasionally. At some point I became hooked and they're now my one and only. The experience of being a fan of a bigger Junior team is far, far better than being a fan of a team in SPFL1 & 2. I've been to every league ground and about 60 other Scottish grounds so I'm reasonably well placed to have an opinion. 

I pay half as much for admission (and nothing at all for my kids), don't face the same opposition four times a season, don't have nationwide travel (which seems nuts to me below full-time level), pay much less for generally better food and drinks, can bring cans and bottles of juice into the ground, don't get my bag searched, can come in at half-time for nothing, can nip out at half time to the local shop (or even home to use the loo) and don't have segregation (not common in SPFL1/2 but recently saw a dozen Albion Rovers fans guarded by 4 stewards at Stranraer). The costs and restrictions on SPFL clubs, plus the drudgery of a nationwide league playing each other 4 times (6 if you meet in a play off, more if you meet in the cups too) is deeply unappealing. 

I'd love Linlithgow Rose to be in a Lowland League with the best that division currently has, like Spartans, East Stirling and even EK, along with the likes of Talbot and Pollok. That league would be very tasty. But I wouldn't want them to go beyond that. If you ask Brora and Buckie Thistle fans, they didn't want to get promoted recently either.

My attitude to the pyramid would change in a heartbeat if SPFL1 & 2 merged with the HFL and the LL to create two regionalised leagues of 18-20 teams (with others bumped down a tier), but the fans of SPFL clubs much prefer the structure the way it is - if they didn't, the presumably wouldn't have become fans of those clubs in the first place.

As for my view now, I have reservations but there's safety in moving into the pyramid with the rest of the Juniors as it hugely reduces the chances of going into Tier 4. Rose haven't been great for a couple of years, but a few years ago they would have gone through the LL like a dose of salts. The standard in the LL has improved and there's a pretty low risk of going up if the other big Junior clubs are there too.  So I'm for joining if everyone else does, but if it didn't happen I'd be fine with that.

Pretty much what I think too. On paper a pyramid makes perfect sense. I watch a few different levels in England and really enjoy it. My main reservation is the closer relationship that will be needed with the absolute reprobates involved in The SPFL.

[bendan]

6 hours ago, GordonS said:

I can give you my own answer as to why I have reservations.

The issue here has nothing to do with ambition, or a fear of change. The issue is what do you go to the football for? The priorities for me are enjoyment, and following my local team. I'd like them to win every week but if that was my main priority I'd be watching Celtic - or Barca on the telly, like half the kids in Scotland.

I grew up near Hampden and I've followed Queen's Park ever since. 18 years ago I moved to Linlithgow and started watching the Rose occasionally. At some point I became hooked and they're now my one and only. The experience of being a fan of a bigger Junior team is far, far better than being a fan of a team in SPFL1 & 2. I've been to every league ground and about 60 other Scottish grounds so I'm reasonably well placed to have an opinion. 

Great post. I can understand the attractions of junior football, and I'd hope some of those features can be brought over in any movement to the pyramid. I think you're absolutely right that SPFL 1&2 aren't very appealing leagues, and it's hard to see why leagues at that level can't be larger to avoid repetition of fixtures. Questions like cost of entry and food is really up to the clubs, so you'd hope the entry of fresh blood might shake things up.

Edited April 1, 2018 by bendan

[The Mantis]

7 hours ago, GordonS said:

I can give you my own answer as to why I have reservations.

The issue here has nothing to do with ambition, or a fear of change. The issue is what do you go to the football for? The priorities for me are enjoyment, and following my local team. I'd like them to win every week but if that was my main priority I'd be watching Celtic - or Barca on the telly, like half the kids in Scotland.

I grew up near Hampden and I've followed Queen's Park ever since. 18 years ago I moved to Linlithgow and started watching the Rose occasionally. At some point I became hooked and they're now my one and only. The experience of being a fan of a bigger Junior team is far, far better than being a fan of a team in SPFL1 & 2. I've been to every league ground and about 60 other Scottish grounds so I'm reasonably well placed to have an opinion. 

I pay half as much for admission (and nothing at all for my kids), don't face the same opposition four times a season, don't have nationwide travel (which seems nuts to me below full-time level), pay much less for generally better food and drinks, can bring cans and bottles of juice into the ground, don't get my bag searched, can come in at half-time for nothing, can nip out at half time to the local shop (or even home to use the loo) and don't have segregation (not common in SPFL1/2 but recently saw a dozen Albion Rovers fans guarded by 4 stewards at Stranraer). The costs and restrictions on SPFL clubs, plus the drudgery of a nationwide league playing each other 4 times (6 if you meet in a play off, more if you meet in the cups too) is deeply unappealing. 

I'd love Linlithgow Rose to be in a Lowland League with the best that division currently has, like Spartans, East Stirling and even EK, along with the likes of Talbot and Pollok. That league would be very tasty. But I wouldn't want them to go beyond that. If you ask Brora and Buckie Thistle fans, they didn't want to get promoted recently either.

My attitude to the pyramid would change in a heartbeat if SPFL1 & 2 merged with the HFL and the LL to create two regionalised leagues of 18-20 teams (with others bumped down a tier), but the fans of SPFL clubs much prefer the structure the way it is - if they didn't, the presumably wouldn't have become fans of those clubs in the first place.

As for my view now, I have reservations but there's safety in moving into the pyramid with the rest of the Juniors as it hugely reduces the chances of going into Tier 4. Rose haven't been great for a couple of years, but a few years ago they would have gone through the LL like a dose of salts. The standard in the LL has improved and there's a pretty low risk of going up if the other big Junior clubs are there too.  So I'm for joining if everyone else does, but if it didn't happen I'd be fine with that.

I'm sure you posted all this stuff before about going home for a poo etc but you were an ex-Celtic fan 

I'm sure there's merit in your view that supporting a bigger Junior team is great crack (never mind the other 150 or so) but who are you to say it's far, far better than supporting Arbroath or Alloa. That's like a Goudieism  

Personally I saw Junior games when I was a wee boy, before I saw any seniors, so I don't share all this born again stuff  

I like the odd Junior game in a season where I see maybe 20 Junior out of 80 games but don't ask me to watch it every week. You might get entertained but sometimes you just want to see a higher standard.

[Sergeant Wilson]

2 minutes ago, The Mantis said:

I'm sure you posted all this stuff before about going home for a poo etc but you were an ex-Celtic fan 

I'm sure there's merit in your view that supporting a bigger Junior team is great crack (never mind the other 150 or so) but who are you to say it's far, far better than supporting Arbroath or Alloa. That's like a Goudieism  

Personally I saw Junior games when I was a wee boy, before I saw any seniors, so I don't share all this born again stuff  

I like the odd Junior game in a season where I see maybe 20 Junior out of 80 games but don't ask me to watch it every week. You might get entertained but sometimes you just want to see a higher standard.

I go to English games when I need  to see quality. Moving from Linlithgow to an SPFL 1/2 game won't satisfy that.

[Burnie_man]

7 hours ago, GordonS said:

I'd love Linlithgow Rose to be in a Lowland League with the best that division currently has, like Spartans, East Stirling and even EK, along with the likes of Talbot and Pollok. That league would be very tasty. But I wouldn't want them to go beyond that.

So you want to see Linlithgow play in a strong LL, but never want them to win it and progress? quite bizarre.

[FairWeatherFan]

4 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

So you want to see Linlithgow play in a strong LL, but never want them to win it and progress? quite bizarre.

I don't think its that bizarre. Once you go into the SPFL the change is more dramatic. You lose the variety of opponents by playing the same 9 clubs 4 times a year. You're also having to spending more money on ancillaries and time travelling. Then there's the fact that a Superleague or Lowland League club have a realistic shot at a trophy every year through the different cup competitions they compete in. Its a different experience with no great reward.

[afca32]

Being able to go home for a jobby isn't a positive as you only have to do it as there aren't any toilets.

[The Mantis]

12 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

I go to English games when I need  to see quality. Moving from Linlithgow to an SPFL 1/2 game won't satisfy that.

If you read it again, I never actually said that. But nevertheless I wouldn’t compare Lithgae to a SPFL1 side, even in light of their cup run last season or Hearts v Talbot.

I supported Caley and they had a better Cup record than either of them, but Caley Thistle struggled in their first season in the leagues, even after strengthening the squad. There’s a massive difference between getting yourself up for a Cup game which probably means little to the opposition, and playing 36 games in the league.

[Glenconner]

10 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

So you want to see Linlithgow play in a strong LL, but never want them to win it and progress? quite bizarre.

Market forces will decide how successful it is. £6 or £7 in the Lowland League to double that to watch your team playing Clyde in SFL2. Bring the kids with you, that will be £8 each thanks. £29 for an adult and two children for a league game!

[Burnie_man]

15 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I don't think its that bizarre. Once you go into the SPFL the change is more dramatic. You lose the variety of opponents by playing the same 9 clubs 4 times a year. You're also having to spending more money on ancillaries and time travelling. Then there's the fact that a Superleague or Lowland League club have a realistic shot at a trophy every year through the different cup competitions they compete in. Its a different experience with no great reward.

It's bizarre in the fact that you want to see your team play in the best non-league division south of the Tay in a Pyramid, but you still want to bang your head off a glass ceiling.

[The Mantis]

Twice people have mentioned playing 4 times a season. That’s unfortunate but it isn’t a defining characteristic of the senior game, auld c***s like me can remember when it was different  

[Burnie_man]

7 minutes ago, Glenconner said:

Market forces will decide how successful it is. £6 or £7 in the Lowland League to double that to watch your team playing Clyde in SFL2. Bring the kids with you, that will be £8 each thanks. £29 for an adult and two children for a league game!

SPFL2 ranges between £12-£14, Clyde charge £13.   I think one LL team charge £8, others £7, £6, £5.  I'd happily pay that to watch my team at a higher level.

Edinburgh City have went from attendances of 50 in the LL charging a fiver, upto an average of around 300 in League Two charging £12.  Admission price doesn't appear to put people off.

[Glenconner]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

SPFL2 ranges between £12-£14, Clyde charge £13.   I think one LL team charge £8, others £7, £6, £5.  I'd happily pay that to watch my team at a higher level.

Edinburgh City have went from attendances of 50 in the LL charging a fiver, upto an average of around 300 in League Two charging £12.  Admission price doesn't appear to put people off.

Somebody on the LL thread said they saw Edinburgh City last week and the crowd was about 35 people.

Care to explain?

[1320Lichtie]

Somebody on the LL thread said they saw Edinburgh City last week and the crowd was about 35 people.
Care to explain?

They’re speaking shite?

[The Mantis]

5 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

SPFL2 ranges between £12-£14, Clyde charge £13.   I think one LL team charge £8, others £7, £6, £5.  I'd happily pay that to watch my team at a higher level.

Edinburgh City have went from attendances of 50 in the LL charging a fiver, upto an average of around 300 in League Two charging £12.  Admission price doesn't appear to put people off.

I wonder if people are happy just paying what they’re used to. At an ICT match I never even think about the admission price, but occasionally I go with my mate who supports Liverpool and I can’t imagine paying £50 other than an occasional treat. But you do hear the price thing raised all the time by Juniors fans.