Junior football, what is the future?

[Goalie Hamish]

1 minute ago, Hillonearth said:

The resurrection of Thirds to a semi-pro level has been "imminent" for a couple of decades now, and seems no closer than it was back then.

The truth of the matter is the club playing under their name is playing in the second division of one of the lower-rated amateur leagues,  the former ground is an admittedly atmospheric ruin which has no hope of being brought back to anything remotely close to code without the injection of probably seven figures, and the passage of time has been sufficient that their fanbase is dispersed, ancient or dead.

It's a cheap headline every couple of years for some blawhard to get their face in the papers about how they're bringing them back which invariably comes to naught.

Was the last one no about a Yank expat millionaire wanting to shell in the cash, must be having pin problems at the ATM.

Its no gonna happen.

[Che Dail]

9 minutes ago, Auld Heid said:

 

Not true

There was no requirement for Linlithgow to join the LL or pyramid when we applied for our licence.

However there was a caveat added that this condition may be added at a later date.

Since we obtained the licence the SFA have done very little to enhance the pyramid concept.

Linlithgow voted in favour of the SJFA proposal so that is embracing the concept but doing it via our ruling body the SJFA.

This route would be progress through football rather than an application form.
 

 

I was replying to Isabel about his team and their aspirations.

Anyway, this year did the Linlithgow members vote to commit to the pyramid via the SJFA? 

At it's inception and over the following 2 seasons, the Lowland League was open to invitation - the opportunity was there for Linlithgow to join.

Through football, Kelty and now Bonnyrigg  have decided to progress their clubs via the EoS league, how come that's not a suitable route for Linlithgow?

The EoS Association next season looks like it will be 40 strong including the LL clubs.  Do you really think those members or any SFL clubs will support your club, or any other Junior side, in jumping ahead of the likes of Spartans and East Kilbride who have worked, through football, towards earning league status?

[Burnie_man]

You could take some time to read through the utter pish that you posted previously under your other user names and that will give you a decent base-line for assessing and comparing poor posts.  Take a week or two to read through the voluminous threads on the pyramid which are full of the same ass-clown characters vilifying anyone who dares to hold anything even resembling an opposing view to their pro-pyramid stance and then come back and talk to me about infantile retorts ,obscene language or bully boy style nonsense.
If you think that any club  makes a decision about it`s future based in any way shape or form on what`s written on this forum then you need to stay off the glue..........

Jeezo, one pigeon short of a toss.

[Ardenvohr6]

I was replying to Isabel about his team and their Do you really think those members or any SFL clubs will support your club, or any other Junior side, in jumping ahead of the likes of Spartans and East Kilbride who have worked, through football, towards earning league status?

No one that I have seen has suggested such a thing. The clubs you mention together with BSC and East Stirling are there on merit. If the juniors were to join they would, at most be at the same level.
Below those four in the LL there is a considerable gap before Selkirk, Gretna et al. And a further gap between the middling and bottom clubs. Surely there is merit in merging the best juniors and EOSL teams into tiers 5 and 6 to ensure they start from a position commensurate with their abilities.
Otherwise, with possibly one or two promotions between leagues each year (from TIER 4 down) it will be years before a semblance of a meritorious league system is achieved. I’d be willing to bet that Hawick Royal Albert would soon be nowhere near tier 6 within three years.

[surely not!]

 
Vultures? Get a grip. Linlithgow didn't want to move, Blackburn and Dalkeith did, and Bonnyrigg, and Camelon and probably two other SL clubs. Everyone was free to choose.
 
We're not doing it simply to get a march on anyone, should we have sat back and waited until the so called big guns decided a year or two down the line, or perhaps never.
 
Honestly some fowk.
 

Spot on. Raymond Van Barnevald clearly a better darts player than Peter Manley but when he moved from the BDO to the PDC, he had to start much lower down the rankings and earn his spot at the top. Manley had been in the PDC longer and had earned his right to be there.

[calmac25]

In the East in order to make integration easier it would be good if the EoSL has 2 divisions of 10-12 clubs. That would leave space for further clubs to either apply next year or for integration to happen without too many teams feeling put out.

I think in England the FA get involved and place teams at an appropriate level. When Chester went bust they were meant to go to step 9-10 with the new club but ended up being placed at step 9 instead.

Next year if Bo'ness and Linlithgow see their future in the seniors or its agreed that teams 1-4 from the superleague go to the premier Division in the EoSL then I think that would be fair

[Auld Heid]

I was replying to Isabel about his team and their aspirations.
Anyway, this year did the Linlithgow members vote to commit to the pyramid via the SJFA? 
At it's inception and over the following 2 seasons, the Lowland League was open to invitation - the opportunity was there for Linlithgow to join.
Through football, Kelty and now Bonnyrigg  have decided to progress their clubs via the EoS league, how come that's not a suitable route for Linlithgow?
The EoS Association next season looks like it will be 40 strong including the LL clubs.  Do you really think those members or any SFL clubs will support your club, or any other Junior side, in jumping ahead of the likes of Spartans and East Kilbride who have worked, through football, towards earning league status?

Our members have not been afforded the opportunity to discuss or decide as yet.

For me the EoS routeway is by far the most sensible option available.

It feels like a loyalty approach by our committee to work with sjfa towards the next step (we have been members for almost 130 years)

But personally I don't think allowing just anyone apply is the best way forward for the EoS either. Are they raising standards or just numbers by allowing all to apply. Footballing ability doesn't seem to matter.

Are all their members on-board with so many new members and knock on effect that could bring.

[Ardenvohr6]

Spot on. Raymond Van Barnevald clearly a better darts player than Peter Manley but when he moved from the BDO to the PDC, he had to start much lower down the rankings and earn his spot at the top. Manley had been in the PDC longer and had earned his right to be there.

Nonsense. Apples and pears. And if RVB hadn’t been headvand shoulders above anything in the ammies, he wouldn’t have been countenanced in the big boys.

[Che Dail]

6 minutes ago, Auld Heid said:

I don't think allowing just anyone apply is the best way forward for the EoS either. Are they raising standards or just numbers by allowing all to apply. Footballing ability doesn't seem to matter.

Are all their members on-board with so many new members and knock on effect that could bring.

 

The Superleague standard is high because of the contribution of ALL clubs, not just the elite few at the top.

But next season the league will be weakened by the loss of its best team and at least 3 others, to be replaced by premier league sides.

12 clubs equates to over 200 new players in the East of Scotland league, predominantly ex Juniors.

The way I see it, every Junior club switching leagues will help to raise the standard and profile of the EoS, and there is no reason why each and every club applying will not be welcomed and voted in.

And if Boness leave for a new WoS next season (is this possible?) the Superleague would be weakened further. The remaining clubs' income will reduce and players based in the central belt will naturally look elsewhere for competitive football - so the 'quality' argument for the Juniors won't stack up for much longer.

I'm sorry to say that pinning hopes on the SJFAs ability to negotiate a positive outcome for your club may be misguided, and the price to pay for that loyalty could mean having to start next season two divisions below where you could (and should) have been now, or remaining in a further diminished league if others decide that their future lies elsewhere at that point.

[Che Dail]

59 minutes ago, calmac25 said:

Next year if Bo'ness and Linlithgow see their future in the seniors or its agreed that teams 1-4 from the superleague go to the premier Division in the EoSL then I think that would be fair

No, it wouldn't.

[Glenconner]

1 hour ago, Goalie Hamish said:

Was the last one no about a Yank expat millionaire wanting to shell in the cash, must be having pin problems at the ATM.

Its no gonna happen.

One of the funniest threads on the LL forum???  Kicked off with a Daily Record story as stated. Some millionaire chap in North America (Fergus McCann's cousin) was ready to give the Green light to Cathkin and Third Lanark. History was everywhere from the story of a dodgy Labour councillor getting the jail to a then local Tory MP chairing a fans meeting in the Dixon Halls (10 years after the club had folded???) Even the Hi Hi bar in the Gorbals got a mention, full of old yellow cigarette stained pictures of the Third Lanark and a jukebox full of rebel records!!! Then there was some sort of spokesman who said he was really a Partick Thistle fan telling us big news was coming in August. The third August is coming up and we're still waiting. And then some chap arrived after about a 100 posts and told the unofficial Thirds spokesman he was talking bollocks and the Jimmy Johnstone Academy has some 5 year let from the council to play at Cathkin on a Saturday. Great never ending story.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Glenconner

[BoomShakalaka]

2 hours ago, calmac25 said:

Next year if Bo'ness and Linlithgow see their future in the seniors or its agreed that teams 1-4 from the superleague go to the premier Division in the EoSL then I think that would be fair

why should they be allowed to gain any advantage against the brave pioneers who are embracing change against the will of the dinosaurs? If you stay you lose.

[TheLad]

Our members have not been afforded the opportunity to discuss or decide as yet.

For me the EoS routeway is by far the most sensible option available.

It feels like a loyalty approach by our committee to work with sjfa towards the next step (we have been members for almost 130 years)

But personally I don't think allowing just anyone apply is the best way forward for the EoS either. Are they raising standards or just numbers by allowing all to apply. Footballing ability doesn't seem to matter.

Are all their members on-board with so many new members and knock on effect that could bring.

I think it's fair that anyone can APPLY, however just allowing anyone IN, is a different story. Haven't seen any acceptance criteria

[Black & Red Socks]

8 hours ago, Auld Heid said:

 

 

Our members have not been afforded the opportunity to discuss or decide as yet.

For me the EoS routeway is by far the most sensible option available.

It feels like a loyalty approach by our committee to work with sjfa towards the next step (we have been members for almost 130 years)

But personally I don't think allowing just anyone apply is the best way forward for the EoS either. Are they raising standards or just numbers by allowing all to apply. Footballing ability doesn't seem to matter.

Are all their members on-board with so many new members and knock on effect that could bring.



 

 

At the moment there is absolutely no route from the Juniors to the Pyramid that is based on footballing ability. Indeed, as things stand there may never be. So, are you honestly saying that forward thinking, progressive clubs who have embraced change and wish to grow further and who wish to strive to be as good and as strong as they can be within the wider Scottish game should form an orderly queue behind Linlithgow Rose and wait until they decide the moment is right if, indeed, they ever do? It's okay for Bonnyrigg Rose to make the move and embrace the possibilities that exist to reinvest in their club and, ergo, their communities as they're above Linlithgow in the league but not okay for the likes of Dalkeith Thistle to do so because they're not?

I would be more sympathetic and, in fact, probably in broad agreement with your argument if progression  from the Juniors into the Pyramid was a path open at the top of the Junior game but, as I've already said and as so many others have already commented on, that path simply doesn't exist and, at the risk of being repetitive, it might never exist. Why, then, should any side wait on another to do their thinking for them?

Edited April 6, 2018 by Black & Red Socks

[calmac25]

why should they be allowed to gain any advantage against the brave pioneers who are embracing change against the will of the dinosaurs? If you stay you lose.

Because it's going to take a degree of flexibility to sort all of this out. The Lowland League started with 12 teams which allowed others to keep their options open. In my opinion it was the right thing to do.

If a full merger happens then Junior/ Senior split needs forgotten about and the best sporting outcomes considered for all members. I think the Lowland League should be protected from change aside from increasing the relegation slots. Otherwise there needs to be negotiation which I fully believe that the EoS will be up for and have shown that they are flexible by considering options for seeding next season.

By your reconning then all the junior applicants this year should be stuck in EoS 2? It doesn't make sense for anyone other them LTHV (or possibly Kelty) who would protect an easier promotion route for next season

[Hillonearth]

9 hours ago, Goalie Hamish said:

Was the last one no about a Yank expat millionaire wanting to shell in the cash, must be having pin problems at the ATM.

Its no gonna happen.

The latest story emanates from Aiden McGeady's uncle who by my reckoning seems to have been talking to the press about his plans for Thirds on a roughly biannual basis since about 2010.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Hillonearth

[craigkillie]

1 hour ago, TheLad said:

I think it's fair that anyone can APPLY, however just allowing anyone IN, is a different story. Haven't seen any acceptance criteria

The point of a pyramid system is that anyone can take part at their natural level.  You would therefore expect the East of Scotland League to accept any applicant from inside their catchment area unless they had an exceptionally good reason not to.  If they aren't as good on the park, they'll end up in the EoS2 or even lower in the long term.  None of the Junior applicants are likely to be any worse than the sides in the lower echelons of that league anyway.

[Auld Heid]

15 minutes ago, Black & Red Socks said:

At the moment there is absolutely no route from the Juniors to the Pyramid that is based on footballing ability. Indeed, as things stand there may never be. So, are you honestly saying that forward thinking, progressive clubs who have embraced change and wish to grow further and who wish to strive to be as good and as strong as they can be within the wider Scottish game should form an orderly queue behind Linlithgow Rose and wait until they decide the moment is right if, indeed, they ever do? It's okay for Bonnyrigg Rose to make the move and embrace the possibilities that exist to reinvest in their club and, ergo, their communities as they're above Linlithgow in the league but not okay for the likes of Dalkeith Thistle to do so because they're not?

I would be more sympathetic and, in fact, probably in broad agreement with your argument if progression  from the Juniors into the Pyramid was a path open at the top of the Junior game but, as I've already said and so many others have already commented on, that path simply doesn't exist and as noted at the beginning of this post, it might never exist. Why, then, should any side wait on another to do their thinking for them?

My gripe is with the football authorities - when the LL started, the SFA stopped and forgot about the rest and pushing to create a proper pathway from top to bottom.  Without due process and rules you eventually end up with the chaos.   

Clubs continue in the EoS league,  unable to progress as still don't meet LL criteria(?) - the LL isn't a new concept existing clubs in the EoS should  have all been in a position by now to progress.   Surely  participation must  involve  meeting that criteria to progress to LL - or the whole concept breaks down. 

Kelty when accepted - had shown on and off the field they would enhance the EoS and would quickly meet the criteria to enable progression to the LL if successful on the park. 

How many of the current applicants would be in a position to progress to the LL within a season of joining the EoS?   Surely this should be a must for teams joining

Linlithgow have made all the right moves to embrace change - unfortunately having done so they are now dithering over how to take the next step - sticking their faith in the SJFA to negotiate a pathway. 

[Salvo Montalbano]

My gripe is with the football authorities - when the LL started, the SFA stopped and forgot about the rest and pushing to create a proper pathway from top to bottom.  Without due process and rules you eventually end up with the chaos.   
Clubs continue in the EoS league,  unable to progress as still don't meet LL criteria(?) - the LL isn't a new concept existing clubs in the EoS should  have all been in a position by now to progress.   Surely  participation must  involve  meeting that criteria to progress to LL - or the whole concept breaks down. 
Kelty when accepted - had shown on and off the field they would enhance the EoS and would quickly meet the criteria to enable progression to the LL if successful on the park. 
How many of the current applicants would be in a position to progress to the LL within a season of joining the EoS?   Surely this should be a must for teams joining
Linlithgow have made all the right moves to embrace change - unfortunately having done so they are now dithering over how to take the next step - sticking their faith in the SJFA to negotiate a pathway. 

Why should it be? Why can't clubs stay in the EoS alongside clubs of similar stature while at the same time being more community orientated? Why can't they join the EoS and start up age group sides and women's sides or try to gain a license inside the pyramid?

[Robert James]

10 hours ago, Ardenvohr6 said:

No one that I have seen has suggested such a thing. The clubs you mention together with BSC and East Stirling are there on merit. If the juniors were to join they would, at most be at the same level.
Below those four in the LL there is a considerable gap before Selkirk, Gretna et al. And a further gap between the middling and bottom clubs. Surely there is merit in merging the best juniors and EOSL teams into tiers 5 and 6 to ensure they start from a position commensurate with their abilities.
Otherwise, with possibly one or two promotions between leagues each year (from TIER 4 down) it will be years before a semblance of a meritorious league system is achieved. I’d be willing to bet that Hawick Royal Albert would soon be nowhere near tier 6 within three years.

Tier 5 is the HFL & SLL, and membership requires a licence. Of all the East Region Juniors, only Linlithgow currently has one, and they haven't applied to join the pyramid.

Even TJ now recognises the need for clubs to be licensed.