Junior football, what is the future?

[santheman]

Quiet night in the Student Union????

[Black & Red Socks]

So instead of looking back in time, let's accept where we are now

You quoted me but I’m not entirely sure you were actually directing your excellent post at me as my own post(s) were attempting to do exactly as you suggest - focus on the fact that we are where we are and understand that clubs need to look forward and plan for their future in or out of the Juniors.....but to do that planning for themselves and not to expect things to happen the way they might want them to if they don’t.

[Burnie_man]

19 minutes ago, Robert James said:

On 9th June 2017, Burnie man opened up this 'Future of the Juniors' theme. 205 pages on from the above post,  his Mystic Meg skills have stood the test of time !  

LOL nothing mystic about it, I'm sure I wasn't the only one that could sense that change was on it's way, I didn't realise for the life of me it would be this quick though and that my team would move to the Pyramid for next season.

[stanley]

On the topic of the English pyramid, whilst initially clubs tended to get promoted back to the league soon after releation, that has changed now.  Especially with there being two relegation places.

Plenty of former league clubs at tier five now and even a few at tier six now (Stockport County being a very notable example).  Over time, you would likely see league clubs struggle more especially with juniors in the pyramid but it will take time.

Edited April 6, 2018 by stanley

[Robert James]

1 hour ago, santheman said:

Quiet night in the Student Union????

No such thing !

[theesel1994]

39 minutes ago, stanley said:

On the topic of the English pyramid, whilst initially clubs tended to get promoted back to the league soon after releation, that has changed now.  Especially with there being two relegation places.

Full time clubs going into a part time league. Now they are going into a full time league so is a lot harder.

[1320Lichtie]

On the topic of the English pyramid, whilst initially clubs tended to get promoted back to the league soon after releation, that has changed now.  Especially with there being two relegation places.
Plenty of former league clubs at tier five now and even a few at tier six now (Stockport County being a very notable example).  Over time, you would likely see league clubs struggle more especially with juniors in the pyramid but it will take time.

England is different ball game though, a lot of the clubs outwith the leagues have such massive potential due to the population of England. Some money pumped into Salford and look at the change in their attendances. Who was the non league club that went far in the cup last season? Their support was ridiculous, higher than the likes of Aberdeen I’m sure.

Like I’ve already said too, I can’t see any league club ‘struggling’, the more decent clubs in tiers below League 2 the merrier for league clubs. It would help, league clubs dropping out into a league that has no money and clubs with little to no support is more of a struggle.

[Robert James]

1 hour ago, Black & Red Socks said:

 

You quoted me but I’m not entirely sure you were actually directing your excellent post at me as my own post(s) were attempting to do exactly as you suggest - focus on the fact that we are where we are and understand that clubs need to look forward and plan for their future in or out of the Juniors.....but to do that planning for themselves and not to expect things to happen the way they might want them to if they don’t.

 

Apologies, as it wasn't directed at you.

Just my frustration that at a very dramatic and important moment for non-league football in Scotland,  we are still embroiled in a 'war of words' about who did (or didn't) do what they should have done, in the past.  To move on, have the dates for the SJFA, and the EoL EGM meetings been published yet ? 

[BoomShakalaka]

16 hours ago, calmac25 said:

Because it's going to take a degree of flexibility to sort all of this out. The Lowland League started with 12 teams which allowed others to keep their options open. In my opinion it was the right thing to do.

If a full merger happens then Junior/ Senior split needs forgotten about and the best sporting outcomes considered for all members. I think the Lowland League should be protected from change aside from increasing the relegation slots. Otherwise there needs to be negotiation which I fully believe that the EoS will be up for and have shown that they are flexible by considering options for seeding next season.

By your reconning then all the junior applicants this year should be stuck in EoS 2? It doesn't make sense for anyone other them LTHV (or possibly Kelty) who would protect an easier promotion route for next season

The SJFA have had years and years to sort this out but haven't......

Thats not my reconning at all if you move now the league should be filled up by these teams in parallel leagues. However, if the leagues were fill now then yes I do believe that the clubs moving now should have gone to EOS2 and clubs moving thereafter should have been bolted in under the pioneers of junior of football. When The Rangers reformed as a tribute act what happened to them? Bolted on to the bottom of the league

[Shannon]

The SJFA have had years and years to sort this out but haven't...... Thats not my reconning at all if you move now the league should be filled up by these teams in parallel leagues. However, if the leagues were fill now then yes I do believe that the clubs moving now should have gone to EOS2 and clubs moving thereafter should have been bolted in under the pioneers of junior of football. When The Rangers reformed as a tribute act what happened to them? Bolted on to the bottom of the league 

 

 There seems to be a lot of get the Juniors into as low a league as possible chat that will create havoc with Linlithgow and Bo'ness potentially 3 leagues below Kelty if some posters have their way as they didn't apply in time. Need some direction from SFA to get this resolved. I would like to see at least top 4 East Super League teams into East of Scotland league with 3/4 being relegated until the league is more settled with best quality possible.

 

With the West Region hopefully have West League slotting below Lowland League with Glasgow Uni, Threave, Bonnyton only potential additions to top 16 Junior West teams but at least one of them may not fancy it if current top 16 West teams are bold and go for it due to either likely to finish bottom or travel issues.

 

 

 

 

 

[Ardenvohr6]

Looking out my window I see very few horses running about. (I do stay in a horsey part of the world) Any that have bolted are usually caught and brought back to the stable. Some leave the stable and, unfortunately, die, be it injury, accident or they get themselves into such a state they have to be put out of their misery. Hopefully, the fact those clubs that have set sail for other climes can be brought safely back to shore. Maybe the SFA can do what their job is and pull things together.

Easily done, how many changes have they made to the Scottish setup over the years?

 

[cmontheloknow]

7 hours ago, Ardenvohr6 said:

Looking out my window I see very few horses running about. (I do stay in a horsey part of the world) Any that have bolted are usually caught and brought back to the stable. Some leave the stable and, unfortunately, die, be it injury, accident or they get themselves into such a state they have to be put out of their misery. Hopefully, the fact those clubs that have set sail for other climes can be brought safely back to shore. Maybe the SFA can do what their job is and pull things together.

Easily done, how many changes have they made to the Scottish setup over the years?

 

You seriously suggest the likes of Dalkeith endanger themselves by giving up the SJFA for the EoS...?

[sevesnape]

28 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

You seriously suggest the likes of Dalkeith endanger themselves by giving up the SJFA for the EoS...?

Dalkeith will save a fortune on travel for a start.

It's a no brainer and anyone that has jumped ship has a head start of the rest.

The committee of my club should be hunted for not going.

[Jambo'ness]

18 minutes ago, sevesnape said:

Dalkeith will save a fortune on travel for a start.

It's a no brainer and anyone that has jumped ship has a head start of the rest.

The committee of my club should be hunted for not going.

Unfair to blame whole committee.  There are some who wanted to move, not just Derek.

[sevesnape]

Just now, Jambo'ness said:

Unfair to blame whole committee.  There are some who wanted to move, not just Derek.

Fair enough, the majority of them are morons then.

[Salvo Montalbano]

 There seems to be a lot of get the Juniors into as low a league as possible chat that will create havoc with Linlithgow and Bo'ness potentially 3 leagues below Kelty if some posters have their way as they didn't apply in time. Need some direction from SFA to get this resolved. I would like to see at least top 4 East Super League teams into East of Scotland league with 3/4 being relegated until the league is more settled with best quality possible. 
With the West Region hopefully have West League slotting below Lowland League with Glasgow Uni, Threave, Bonnyton only potential additions to top 16 Junior West teams but at least one of them may not fancy it if current top 16 West teams are bold and go for it due to either likely to finish bottom or travel issues.
 
 
 
 
 

I keep hearing this type of thing from Junior fans - why should junior clubs who have up til now (and in some cases continue) showed no interest in joining the pyramid be slotted in at a higher level? After Rangers demise, the new club rightly ended up in the bottom tier. Some folk tried to slot them in higher up and it was correctly rejected. When Juventus were relegated during Calciopoli, did they automatically get a European place after winning Serie B because they were a bit club? When Wimbledon became MK Dons and AFC Wimbledon was founded, they started in the lowest level with a space. They were a much bigger club than those in that league and they went on to have many successive promotions. Teams find their natural level by winning leagues or being relegated. To suggest that teams should bypass normal sporting convention because currently they are a big fish in a small pond is arrogance in the extreme IMO.

[Auld Heid]

Fair enough, the majority of them are morons then.

Well that makes you one as well.

Committee aren't self appointed - you get who you vote for. Or as in most cases the only people willing to do it.

We are in exact the same boat.

[Robert James]

17 minutes ago, sevesnape said:

Dalkeith will save a fortune on travel for a start.

It's a no brainer and anyone that has jumped ship has a head start of the rest.

The committee of my club should be hunted for not going.

I agree with your views.  However, I don't understand  why Bo'ness seems to be 'glued' onto Linlithgow, rather than making its own decision about the pyramid.

 

Being positive though, all may not be' lost' for 2018/19, for the following reasons :

(1) the EoS would apparently like to have 2 divisions next season, and (ideally) have 2  x 16 (32 clubs) . According to numerous posts on the "New Clubs for the EoS", and on here, it appears likely that the number of Applicants received by 1st April, 2018, was insufficient to reach this level for next season

(2) the outcome of the SJFA's impending EGM, may not be satisfactory for Bo'ness, LR, and some others, and (whilst unlikely) it is not inconceivable that the EoS may consider late applicants to fill, the shortfall of 4 or 5 clubs, with a view to bringing up the numbers to 32 for next season. There are some precedents for late applications, although i have no knowledge of the SJFA rules about the time period for resignations  (AGM date ?)

(3) even if consideration of late applicants is rejected for 2018/19, the EoS will need to fill the remaining (4 or 5 ?) vacancies for 2019/20. The worst case scenario then,  would be that (by negotiation)  junior Super League applicants would have a very strong case to be allocated automatically into the EoS 2nd division. even if a 3rd division is created at that stage. Most people would agree that it would be ridiculous to 'force' the top junior clubs into an EoS 3rd division.

(4) on a previous post, I suggested that a review of the the new EoS structure for 2018/19, should be carried out 12 months from now, to see how successful  it has been. Some surprising outcomes may emerge ?

[Jambo'ness]

12 minutes ago, Salvo Montalbano said:

9 hours ago, Shannon said:

 There seems to be a lot of get the Juniors into as low a league as possible chat that will create havoc with Linlithgow and Bo'ness potentially 3 leagues below Kelty if some posters have their way as they didn't apply in time. Need some direction from SFA to get this resolved. I would like to see at least top 4 East Super League teams into East of Scotland league with 3/4 being relegated until the league is more settled with best quality possible. 
With the West Region hopefully have West League slotting below Lowland League with Glasgow Uni, Threave, Bonnyton only potential additions to top 16 Junior West teams but at least one of them may not fancy it if current top 16 West teams are bold and go for it due to either likely to finish bottom or travel issues.
 
 
 
 
 

I keep hearing this type of thing from Junior fans - why should junior clubs who have up til now (and in some cases continue) showed no interest in joining the pyramid be slotted in at a higher level? After Rangers demise, the new club rightly ended up in the bottom tier. Some folk tried to slot them in higher up and it was correctly rejected. When Juventus were relegated during Calciopoli, did they automatically get a European place after winning Serie B because they were a bit club? When Wimbledon became MK Dons and AFC Wimbledon was founded, they started in the lowest level with a space. They were a much bigger club than those in that league and they went on to have many successive promotions. Teams find their natural level by winning leagues or being relegated. To suggest that teams should bypass normal sporting convention because currently they are a big fish in a small pond is arrogance in the extreme IMO.

I have to agree with you.  My club had a chance which it has now wasted.  In any future agreement it would be wrong for us to vault over others who had the balls to make the change when the chance was there.

[Burnie_man]

9 hours ago, Shannon said:

 There seems to be a lot of get the Juniors into as low a league as possible chat that will create havoc with Linlithgow and Bo'ness potentially 3 leagues below Kelty if some posters have their way as they didn't apply in time. Need some direction from SFA to get this resolved. I would like to see at least top 4 East Super League teams into East of Scotland league with 3/4 being relegated until the league is more settled with best quality possible.

 

......and to hell with whoever is playing in the EoS?

The situation for next season is that the existing EoS clubs could, quite rightly, say that the existing 13 clubs plus a few of the newcomers form the top division next season and everyone else form the second.  I personally would have no problem with that.  New members don't have any right to go into a league and start shouting the odds over where they should be placed based on "we're better than you".

Neither should this be the case if and when Linlithgow and Bo'ness (and others) decide to move.  They knew the potential landscape for 2019/20 if they didn't move this season. I refer you back to my post on short-termism.

I rather suspect the SFA wont interfere with how the EoSFL deal with new applicants or structure their league, they haven't this season and I doubt they will in following seasons.