Junior football, what is the future?

[geo87]

I suppose it depends if you want a pyramid with the better clubs higher up the pyramid or if you want a pyramid which punishes the better clubs and protects the duff clubs and turns the whole notion of a pyramid on its head and makes Scottish football a laughing stock.

Oh dear.

[Khufu2]

48 minutes ago, geo87 said:

 

Oh dear.

 

Oh dear what?  Why else would you want to ensure that duff teams are a couple of tiers higher than many far better clubs.? How does it make the least bit of sense?

[drs]

It makes sense if you have any understanding at all of how a pyramid setup works!

[drs]

Instead of red dotting that last post Glenafton93 and San, why not explain what you think was wrong with it?

 

 

Edited April 14, 2018 by drs

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, Khufu2 said:

Oh dear what?  Why else would you want to ensure that duff teams are a couple of tiers higher than many far better clubs.? How does it make the least bit of sense?

Tier 6 is basically open to the West & North. At worse a handful of late adopting East Superleague teams will likely be in a Tier 7 league in 2019-20. Its not exactly a hardship. The only clubs that have a real issue in all of this are the Tayside clubs that fall north of the Highland/Lowland boundary.

[Khufu2]

9 minutes ago, drs said:

It makes sense if you have any understanding at all of how a pyramid setup works!

A pyramid has the strongest teams at the top and the weakest teams at the bottom.  That's how it works. Didn't you know?   The system the likes of you are advocating will have not just a single club but dozens of clubs lower down the pyramid than their ability warrants and several clubs far higher up the pyramid than their abilities and resources merit.  

Get your calculator out and work out how many years it would take for 30 teams to rise to an appropriate level (2 tiers higher than they are currently placed) if two teams are promoted from any one division in one year.

[oldandround]

16 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

A pyramid has the strongest teams at the top and the weakest teams at the bottom.  That's how it works. Didn't you know?   The system the likes of you are advocating will have not just a single club but dozens of clubs lower down the pyramid than their ability warrants and several clubs far higher up the pyramid than their abilities and resources merit.  

Get your calculator out and work out how many years it would take for 30 teams to rise to an appropriate level (2 tiers higher than they are currently placed) if two teams are promoted from any one division in one year.

How do you know they are better or worse?  You dont.  You think based upon decent reasoning, but sport doesn't work that way.  

The "better" teams need to prove they are.  Linlithgow say are in all likelihood a far better side than Ormiston.  But until they play each other in a competitive league, this cant be proven.

So, the new teams join at the bottom and work their way up.  Thats how a pyramid works.

If takes them 5 years to balance, then it takes 5 years.

Organised football is 130 ish years old.  5 years of sort out is not gonna be an issue in the long run.

 

 

[Khufu2]

19 minutes ago, oldandround said:

How do you know they are better or worse?  You dont.  You think based upon decent reasoning, but sport doesn't work that way.  

The "better" teams need to prove they are.  Linlithgow say are in all likelihood a far better side than Ormiston.  But until they play each other in a competitive league, this cant be proven.

So, the new teams join at the bottom and work their way up.  Thats how a pyramid works.

If takes them 5 years to balance, then it takes 5 years.

Organised football is 130 ish years old.  5 years of sort out is not gonna be an issue in the long run.

 

 

You mean results like Bonnyrigg 14-0 Burntisland

 

[kenny131]

19 minutes ago, oldandround said:

How do you know they are better or worse?  You dont.  You think based upon decent reasoning, but sport doesn't work that way.  

The "better" teams need to prove they are.  Linlithgow say are in all likelihood a far better side than Ormiston.  But until they play each other in a competitive league, this cant be proven.

So, the new teams join at the bottom and work their way up.  Thats how a pyramid works.

If takes them 5 years to balance, then it takes 5 years.

Organised football is 130 ish years old.  5 years of sort out is not gonna be an issue in the long run.

 

 

Completly agree if you want in to have a piece of the pie then start at the bottom like everyone else.

[Burnie_man]

47 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

A pyramid has the strongest teams at the top and the weakest teams at the bottom.  That's how it works. Didn't you know? 

That works when you set it up from scratch,  that doesn't happen in the East because it's already in place but the Junior clubs didn't want to know when it was being set-up.

So they join at the bottom and work their way up, regardless of strength. That's not punishing anyone, that's how a Pyramid works, just like the Junior Pyramid.

[nicotina]

well done spartans

[drs]

45 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

You mean results like Bonnyrigg 14-0 Burntisland

That's why a pyramid allows you to find your correct level,  if teams like Linlithgow don't engage then they only have themselves to blame if they find the club 10 years from the Lowland League - that's not the fault of Burntisland. Maybe you should have raised the issue with your committee at the apposite time instead of crying in the wind once you realised that the game is up.

[heedthebaa]

7 minutes ago, gogsy said:

[santheman]

2 hours ago, drs said:

Instead of red dotting that last post Glenafton93 and San, why not explain what you think was wrong with it?

 

 

OK a pyramid  works when you have the strongest teams at the top and the weakest at the bottom which is patently not the case with the current set up (and I know it's not the clubs faults that was allowed to happen)

[oldandround]

19 minutes ago, santheman said:

OK a pyramid  works when you have the strongest teams at the top and the weakest at the bottom which is patently not the case with the current set up (and I know it's not the clubs faults that was allowed to happen)

100% agree.

How do you decide who is the strongest and who is the weakest though?

either we guess or we get the teams to play against each other.

Sporting integrity dictates that they must find their level by playing against each other.  As there is already a league, then the new clubs need to join at the entry level.  You simply cant parachute a team into the top division because their support perceive them to be a big club.  

See newco/sameclub but different holding something or other rangers as an example. They were perceived to be a big club deserving of direct entry to the top league.  Sporting integrity said nut.  Start at the bottom.

[santheman]

10 minutes ago, oldandround said:

100% agree.

How do you decide who is the strongest and who is the weakest though?

either we guess or we get the teams to play against each other.

Sporting integrity dictates that they must find their level by playing against each other.  As there is already a league, then the new clubs need to join at the entry level.  You simply cant parachute a team into the top division because their support perceive them to be a big club.  

See newco/sameclub but different holding something or other rangers as an example. They were perceived to be a big club deserving of direct entry to the top league.  Sporting integrity said nut.  Start at the bottom.

But what you have are teams who did not start at the bottom as you say and are only in the League they are in because they know how to fill in a good application form or have become a kiddy on Community Club

I am neither a Pollok Linlithgow or Auhinleck fan but do you honestly think clubs of their stature  should be below the whole of the SoS and EoS and most of the LL in terms of infrastructure,finances and fan base??. 

Take Edusport for example and the old joke that the Juniors are watched by one man and his dug. Well the dug must have fecked off before kick off when I watched them and to think they could actually become an SFL team at some point beggars belief.

[1320Lichtie]

But what you have are teams who did not start at the bottom as you say and are only in the League they are in because they know how to fill in a good application form or have become a kiddy on Community Club
I am neither a Pollok Linlithgow or Auhinleck fan but do you honestly think clubs of their stature  should be below the whole of the SoS and EoS and most of the LL in terms of infrastructure,finances and fan base??. 
Take Edusport for example and the old joke that the Juniors are watched by one man and his dug. Well the dug must have fecked off before kick off when I watched them and to think they could actually become an SFL team at some point beggars belief.

None of that matters. Teams already in the league shouldn’t have to make way for teams outside it. That’s not fair.

Looks like the real winners here are Kelty. Fair play to them for being so switched on.

[FairWeatherFan]

20 minutes ago, santheman said:

But what you have are teams who did not start at the bottom as you say and are only in the League they are in because they know how to fill in a good application form or have become a kiddy on Community Club

I am neither a Pollok Linlithgow or Auhinleck fan but do you honestly think clubs of their stature  should be below the whole of the SoS and EoS and most of the LL in terms of infrastructure,finances and fan base??. 

Take Edusport for example and the old joke that the Juniors are watched by one man and his dug. Well the dug must have fecked off before kick off when I watched them and to think they could actually become an SFL team at some point beggars belief.

I'd probably have Pollok, Linlithgow & Auchinleck in SPFL 1 or 2, but i'm not going to argue for them being placed there.

[kefc]

1 hour ago, santheman said:

But what you have are teams who did not start at the bottom as you say and are only in the League they are in because they know how to fill in a good application form or have become a kiddy on Community Club

I am neither a Pollok Linlithgow or Auhinleck fan but do you honestly think clubs of their stature  should be below the whole of the SoS and EoS and most of the LL in terms of infrastructure,finances and fan base??. 

Take Edusport for example and the old joke that the Juniors are watched by one man and his dug. Well the dug must have fecked off before kick off when I watched them and to think they could actually become an SFL team at some point beggars belief.

So did we just say let us into the Lowland League upon our application as we are bigger and better than most in there and in the EOS League? We seized our moment, started at the bottom and that sits very well with us as a football club, any other way wouldn’t have been right or fair.

The pyramid is in place, SJFA publicly and within meetings to work together stuck 2 fingers up to it and Licencing up until the last month or so. I mean TJ is still scaremongering clubs off getting Licenced so I’m hearing, unbelievable. Clubs destinies are in their own hands.

If clubs want to be part of it you start at the bottom and work your way to the top through sporting integrity. Clubs will find their level in time. SFA, LL, EOS, HL, SOS owe Junior Clubs nothing, the LL has been battered by the SJFA and some of its clubs. Why would the guys in these organisations and their clubs want to entertain the SJFA at tier 6, it’s no going to happen, they are streets ahead in terms of structure, integrity, agendas, planning etc.  The great Junior clubs make the Junior grade, TJ and co have fallen sleep the last 10 years at least and other grades and some of their clubs have overtaken and will continue to do so. 

[th1stleandr0se]

I'd accept the idea that teams have to start at the bottom and work up if it was just a single team but it looks like an entire migration we're talking about and that's a completely different thing.  We're talking in terms of a merger.  If we are seriously talking about the integration of the SJFA into the SFA structure then the easiest way to get somewhere near equilibrium is to have the top junior teams entering at a higher level and so on using whatever mechanism is best.

Otherwise we'll have to endure seasons of lopsided matches until the top junior sides squeeze out of the lower divisions at a rate of two per year.

Or, alternatively, the players currently with the top junior sides leave to join teams in the higher divisions and those junior teams never reach what should have been their natural level due to the faulty structure.