Junior football, what is the future?

[RobM]

On 30/10/2017 at 15:37, Cyclizine said:

There's nothing wrong about promoting heritage and remembering history. Unfortunately, times have changed. What was successful in an era of Saturday morning shifts, thriving pit communities, full employment and less competition on time is sadly not as relevant today. You can't close your eyes and stuck your fingers in your ears and ignore the significant societal changes that have happened in the last 50-odd years.

We shouldn't be asking "What can we do to make junior football relevant today", but what can we do to make the whole Scottish game relevant and self-sustaining - from the youth and recreational games and all the way up to the professional game.

As I've said many times on here, I don't see how the artificial and disjointed structures we have created over the years should be seen as the only way. A unified structure is years overdue. I think it's inevitable it will happen. It will involve some blazers from all sides making concessions - some will be unhappy.

It's not inevitable, the junior set-up is healthy and stands well on its own.  

Well supported clubs at the top, good to excellent players for our level of football at the top level and a decent enough set-up.

I love the Junior game, I'd suggest that the senior game has to up the standards it offers before it becomes in any way alluring.  Maybe Kelty are getting in under the wire and there will be big changes in the game but the Junior game isn't holding players back, the drive for a pyramid is kind of ignoring the fact that people playing in and watching junior football enjoy the community aspect of it.

Edited November 1, 2017 by RobM

[RobM]

I think that what you have to ask is what a pyramid system could offer the Junior set up as it is at the moment.

The Lowland League doesn't appear to be attracting any additional supporters into the game.  I'd agree that the route in is a good idea, East Stirling are struggling to push themselves back into the leagues but let's not kid ourselves on that it's a healthy set-up.  BSC Glasgow, based in Alloa, come on, it's a farce.

You have to offer something alluring to the Junior set-up before it becomes worthwhile, that hasn't happened yet.  I'm still watching good, competitive football at Olivebank while this argument goes on.

[Burnie_man]

4 minutes ago, RobM said:

I think that what you have to ask is what a pyramid system could offer the Junior set up as it is at the moment.

The Lowland League doesn't appear to be attracting any additional supporters into the game.  I'd agree that the route in is a good idea, East Stirling are struggling to push themselves back into the leagues but let's not kid ourselves on that it's a healthy set-up.  BSC Glasgow, based in Alloa, come on, it's a farce.

You have to offer something alluring to the Junior set-up before it becomes worthwhile, that hasn't happened yet.  I'm still watching good, competitive football at Olivebank while this argument goes on.

If you go back one page and find my post towards the bottom and have a look at what an integrated set-up could look like 3 or 4 seasons from now if it happened at the end of this season. Have a look and then come back and let us know your thoughts.

[Burnie_man]

25 minutes ago, RobM said:

 the drive for a pyramid is kind of ignoring the fact that people playing in and watching junior football enjoy the community aspect of it.

Do you not think that fans, players and officals of Preston Athletic, Whitehill Welfare, Spartans, Selkirk, Hawick et all also enjoy the community aspect of their clubs? They are no different from Junior clubs. Why keep us and them apart?

[Che Dail]

39 minutes ago, RobM said:

You have to offer something alluring to the Junior set-up before it becomes worthwhile, that hasn't happened yet.  I'm still watching good, competitive football at Olivebank while this argument goes on.

Wouldn't you like to see pro clubs playing competitive fixtures at Olivebank?  1200+ St Mirren fans expected at Saughton Enclosure this month... 

[Che Dail]

1 hour ago, RobM said:

You have to offer something alluring to the Junior set-up before it becomes worthwhile, that hasn't happened yet. 

LTHV 2017/18 Scottish Cup Prize Money:

Prelim 2 v Kelty = £2k

Prelim 2 v Coldstream = £2k

R1 v Inverurie = £2k

R2 v Stirling Albion = £4k

R3 v St Mirren = £6k

Gate receipts share v St Mirren = £4k?

Plus Annual SFA Club Member payment (if successful with Licence application) = £5k

TOTAL = £25k

5 games of football and that’s not including TV money (if applicable) and retail takings on the day.  If they get through the St Mirren tie to R4 the prize money is a further £9k and into the pot with  Hearts / Hibs / Rangers / Celtic etc.

To put this into perspective, the reward for winning the East Region Super League is £1750.  

Not very good is it?  

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/revealed-scottish-cup-winners-pick-10164143

Edited November 2, 2017 by Che Dail

[kefc]

20 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

LTHV 2017/18 Scottish Cup Prize Money:

Prelim 2 v Kelty = £2k

Prelim 2 v Coldstream = £2k

R1 v Inverurie = £2k

R2 v Stirling Albion = £4k

R3 v St Mirren = £6k

Gate receipts share v St Mirren = £4k?

Plus Annual SFA Club Member payment (if successful with Licence application) = £5k

TOTAL = £25k

5 games of football and that’s not including TV money (if applicable) and retail takings on the day.  If they get through the St Mirren tie to R4 the prize money is a further £9k and into the pot with  Hearts / Hibs / Rangers / Celtic etc.

To put this into perspective, the reward for winning the East Region Super League is £1750.  

Not very good is it?  

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/revealed-scottish-cup-winners-pick-10164143

Im sure the yearly SFA payments to member clubs has went up to between £10k and £14k.

Edited November 2, 2017 by kefc

[Che Dail]

Just now, kefc said:

Im sure the yearly SFA payments to member clubs has went up to between £10k to £12k.

Even more alluring!  

[Black & Red Socks]

On ‎30‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 12:36, Burnie_man said:

The key is to get everyone (or the majority) on board by making it as simple and straightforward as you can, nobody likes major change. Once everyone has bought into it and it happens, then you can start tinkering with further regionalisation of the lower reaches (eg. the existing East Premier might go and clubs regionalised instead). Who runs all this?  well a combination of existing LL/EoSFL/SoSFL/SJFA officials under the auspices of the SFA, with more funding available to EoSFL/WoSFL clubs to gain an SFA Licence with the target that by 2022, all LL, EoSL and WoSL clubs have a Licence, and by 2028, all clubs in the LL system have a Licence where possible.

Thoughts? are there any showstoppers in here? anything that Junior clubs should be afraid of?   Ideally IMO you have a Lowland League West, but I dont think that has any chance of happening and over time the number of West v East clubs in the LL will balance out.

This seems to me to be both straightforward and workable, ultimately positioning clubs in a geographical area roughly equivalent to those they compete in now and offering a pragmatic solution to bringing 'senior' and 'junior' football together in a proper pyramid as opposed to the less than appealing, 'non-pyramid' pyramid that we presently have. In short, an excellent proposition that those in this supposed SJFA working party should be seriously looking at proposing in its entirety to member clubs and, consequently, to the SFA.

If the SFA are indeed serious about dragging Scottish league football, no doubt kicking and screaming, into the modern footballing world that most every other country inhabits then this is the best structure I've seen proposed that would help them do so.

[AlanCamelonfan]

11 hours ago, RobM said:

I think that what you have to ask is what a pyramid system could offer the Junior set up as it is at the moment.

The Lowland League doesn't appear to be attracting any additional supporters into the game.  I'd agree that the route in is a good idea, East Stirling are struggling to push themselves back into the leagues but let's not kid ourselves on that it's a healthy set-up.  BSC Glasgow, based in Alloa, come on, it's a farce.

You have to offer something alluring to the Junior set-up before it becomes worthwhile, that hasn't happened yet.  I'm still watching good, competitive football at Olivebank while this argument goes on.

These guys on here only want to see the positive of a pyramid. For me the thing I said it would need to be a merger. Tagging it onto the bottom will just make it a farce in my opinion. Each entitled to yours.  Teams that were at the top would now become somewhere in the middle.  A merger with an integration where teams would be in the right place and fife teams playing with the fife teams would be the best route.  Lowland league is ok but it is a different game whether you like it or not.  A player who played in both Lowland league and east super league said same thing as me junior games more physical where as lowland league is more technical.

 

As for the Lowland League I think for East stirlingshire its actually the right level for them that they can be challenging in a decent league instead of constantly struggling in the league

 

[Burnie_man]

3 hours ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

These guys on here only want to see the positive of a pyramid.

 

 

.....and yet all you do is make negative posts without backing up your opinion. At least those who are proposing that the Juniors integrate give valid reasons as to why, and provide examples of how it can work.

 "Tagging onto the bottom will make it a farce" why? another comment without substance.  I've shown how it can work and where we could be in the next 3 to 4 seasons.  There is no magic solution, a merger where clubs enter at the right level would be preferable but you yourself have said in the past that Junior clubs cannot expect to elbow existing EoSFL clubs out of the way!!

 

Edited November 2, 2017 by Burnie_man

[Jason King]

And imagine if it went the other way and the EoS teams joined the Junior leagues in the East and demanded that the top half of their league be let in at the top level of the Juniors - Alan would be spitting feathers if Camelon were relegated to the 2nd Division in a new East set up because Heriot Watt Uni and Leith Athletic had been parachuted into the top league and thus got to play Linlithgow and Bonnyrigg whilst Camelon were off to the likes of Harthill and Livingston.

Junior clubs (and the SJFA) sat on their hands whilst there were seismic changes in non-league football south of the Tay - we cant come to the table 5 years later and expect to be given the best seats. Clubs like Camelon should be looking at the example of Kelty and doing their utmost to follow them.

 

 

[Auld Heid]

And imagine if it went the other way and the EoS teams joined the Junior leagues in the East and demanded that the top half of their league be let in at the top level of the Juniors - Alan would be spitting feathers if Camelon were relegated to the 2nd Division in a new East set up because Heriot Watt Uni and Leith Athletic had been parachuted into the top league and thus got to play Linlithgow and Bonnyrigg whilst Camelon were off to the likes of Harthill and Livingston.
Junior clubs (and the SJFA) sat on their hands whilst there were seismic changes in non-league football south of the Tay - we cant come to the table 5 years later and expect to be given the best seats. Clubs like Camelon should be looking at the example of Kelty and doing their utmost to follow them.
 
 

Would either of these teams grounds meet the required standards to be accepted to juniors?

The problem you have is the amount of teams junior and EoS (in general) who are really glorified amateur teams.

Maybe there should be a full audit on all teams against the set criteria of respective league's. Teams failing to meet or gain the correct criteria within a set period are put to a more appropriate level.

[AlanCamelonfan]

3 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

.....and yet all you do is make negative posts without backing up your opinion. At least those who are proposing that the Juniors integrate give valid reasons as to why, and provide examples of how it can work.

 "Tagging onto the bottom will make it a farce" why? another comment without substance.  I've shown how it can work and where we could be in the next 3 to 4 seasons.  There is no magic solution, a merger where clubs enter at the right level would be preferable but you yourself have said in the past that Junior clubs cannot expect to elbow existing EoSFL clubs out of the way!!

 

I've made positive comments like my one about merginger.  Tagging onto the bottom makes it a farce of a competition with the same shambles eos is at the minute. 

Maybe the idea of making it criteria based might work.

 

Burnieman why can't you accept that people like juniors for what it is. We arent all dinosaurs

[Burnie_man]

I've made positive comments like my one about merginger.  Tagging onto the bottom makes it a farce of a competition with the same shambles eos is at the minute.  Maybe the idea of making it criteria based might work.

 

Burnieman why can't you accept that people like juniors for what it is. We arent all dinosaurs

 

 

To the point you have made in the past, why do you think Juniors should elbow EoSFL clubs out of the way? Have you changed your mind?

 

There is no long term future in the Juniors remaining isolationist. People who think there is are dinosaurs frankly, sorry if that upsets you.

 

 

 

[Burnie_man]

Would either of these teams grounds meet the required standards to be accepted to juniors?

The problem you have is the amount of teams junior and EoS (in general) who are really glorified amateur teams.

Maybe there should be a full audit on all teams against the set criteria of respective league's. Teams failing to meet or gain the correct criteria within a set period are put to a more appropriate level.

We already have Junior clubs that fail to meet standards, even new ones.

There's more Licenced grounds in the EoSFL than in the East Region.

[parsforlife]

 

Burnieman why can't you accept that people like juniors for what it is. We arent all dinosaurs

 

Can anyone actually explain what about the juniors they like which is under threat by a pyramid?

 

[Auld Heid]

We already have Junior clubs that fail to meet standards, even new ones.

There's more Licenced grounds in the EoSFL than in the East Region.

Exactly my point - you don't progress if clubs not meeting required standards are not taken to task.

Why set standards that aren't adhered to. That's a good start of culling the waste.

[Burnie_man]

9 minutes ago, Auld Heid said:

 

Exactly my point - you don't progress if clubs not meeting required standards are not taken to task.

Why set standards that aren't adhered to. That's a good start of culling the waste.
 

"Culling the waste",  how very Linlithgow.........

Ground standards have already been set by the SFA Licencing scheme, if and when any coming together of Junior and Senior non-league happens, then at that point you begin to encourage clubs to meet these standards over time.

[Burnie_man]

17 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

 

Can anyone actually explain to what about the juniors they like which is under threat by a pyramid?

 

Nope