Junior football, what is the future?

[AsimButtHitsASix]

35 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

The league table tells it all. Mediocrity below the 4th place.

4	East Stirlingshire	30	19	7	4	67	31	7	5	3	28	19	12	2	1	39	12	+36	64
5	Selkirk	30	15	3	12	63	50	6	3	6	29	27	9	0	6	34	23	+13	48

 

Gross mediocrity below 5th place

6

Cumbernauld Colts

30

11

8

11

53

54

8

4

3

35

21

3

4

8

18

33

-1

41

And were Selkirk the year before? In all football leagues, but especially part-time/lower league, the difference in teams year to year can be massive. For all we know Whitehill might snap up a few talented players and be challenging and EK could lose their best players to league clubs and be rattling around down the bottom. Would this years Talbot or Pollok be fighting out at the top? Almost certainly. Doesn't mean they automatically would next year.

Guess that's the point of a pyramid. Teams will move up and down depending on their abilities. Shocking idea I know.

[Jason King]

9 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Guess that's the point of a pyramid. Teams will move up and down depending on their abilities. Shocking idea I know.

Its a concept that people in Ayrshire seem to be having great difficulty with!

[Khufu2]

11 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Guess that's the point of a pyramid. Teams will move up and down depending on their abilities. Shocking idea I know.

So if there are 10 LL teams blocking places that could be occupied by superior teams can you work out how long it would take to replace them all at the rate of one per year?

Working must be shown.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

So if there are 10 LL teams blocking places that could be occupied by superior teams can you work out how long it would take to replace them all at the rate of one per year?
Working must be shown.

So scrap the LL and put the juniors in the level above because you think other clubs are better but have absolutely nothing to back it up?
Look the junior teams absolutely fucked their chances with the pyramid and LL turning their noses up when invited, yes invited to apply. But now all of a sudden its not looking too rosey for the SJFA we should bend over backwards and chuck teams out the LL because some junior fans think their team is better with absolutely nothing to qualify this other than crowd wanking and one off cup matches.

[FairWeatherFan]

3 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

So if there are 10 LL teams blocking places that could be occupied by superior teams can you work out how long it would take to replace them all at the rate of one per year?

Working must be shown.

10 years, but its a trick question as you've already set the rate of 1 a year. Taking into consideration the current variables in the system it could be done in a minimum 5 years. Not that it matters as the promotion/relegation system is likely to change this summer.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

2 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

So if there are 10 LL teams blocking places that could be occupied by superior teams can you work out how long it would take to replace them all at the rate of one per year?

Working must be shown.

I understand your pain. There are currently about a dozen or so teams blocking Morton's rightful place in European competition.

But presuming that the Junior clubs are, indeed, superior, and there would be a 2up/2down relegation system then I'm gonna say there would be 5 years before these "superior" Junior teams take their place above these so called "blockers"

Of course for the best Junior team then they would only be "blocking" them for one year as they would win promotion to the LL. For the next best Junior team they would only be blocking them for 2 years.

If, as you claim, Selkirk are "blockers" for having only 65% the points total of Spartans in fifth then I'm gonna suggest that Glenafton, with 69% of the points total of Auchinleck in fifth are are just as mediocre in their league as Selkirk are in theirs (or at least only 4% less mediocre).

So I don't know why you reckon the ten teams are blocking superior teams?

[Marten]

40 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

What it tells you is the top 4 were far better than the 5th placed team and the 5th placed team was far better than the 6th.  Now if you think the top 4 are immensely superior to the best of the junior teams, you might be on to something because then the mediocrity of the LL might indeed be better than the best of the juniors .... but somehow I doubt it. How far do the mediocre LL clubs progress relative to the juniors in the Scottish Cup - not very far I would submit (despite getting a round start on them). What have been the results of head-to-heads between the mediocre LL teams and the juniors - advantage juniors I should think.

That Cove were unable to beat Cowdenbeath, yet able to beat Spartans easily suggests that the top LL teams really aren't that much better (if at all) than the top junior teams . And the mediocre ones most certainly aren't.

To the current 4 you can add Kelty next season. The season after you can add LTHV or Bonnyrigg, but  with 1 up 1 down it's going to take a while before all the mediocrity is weeded out and better teams replace them.

 

Cup results can't be compared to how a team would perform compared to others over the course of a whole season, even not if there is a clear pattern in cup results. A clear example is The Netherlands, who are also in a painfully long process to get a properly working pyramid. Before there were national divisions for the top non-league sides, everyone was convinced these sides were clearly better than any team in the bottom half of the 2nd tier. There was a clear pattern in cup results after all, with the top non-league sides almost consistently beating the bottom half 2nd tier team, only on rare occasions they lost.

When a new tier between the 2nd tier and the old top non-league regional divisions got introduced, the top non-league teams & bottom 2nd tier teams started. The bottom 2nd tier team was expected to struggle because of the cup pattern & the fact they lost nearly half of their squad after relegation. Instead, they won the league and went straight back up. The first non-league side to get promoted have been near the bottom for a few years until their relegation last year, in previous seasons they were only saved because no 3rd tier teams wanted to get promoted (promotion is currently not mandatory). In reality, the gap between the divisions is bigger than anyone expected and the cup results are now (more accurately) explained with the fact that the 2nd tier sides often struggle with the completely different style of play of the 3rd tier teams in one-off cup games rather than actually being weaker.

That can easily be the case in Scotland too. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Kelty end up near the top of the LL and Bonnyrigg (or whatever team(s) might come up next season) will be soon as well. But we simply don't know for sure yet. Kelty's LL performances will definitely be something to watch.

[The Mantis]

13 minutes ago, Marten said:

Cup results can't be compared to how a team would perform compared to others over the course of a whole season, even not if there is a clear pattern in cup results. A clear example is The Netherlands, who are also in a painfully long process to get a properly working pyramid. Before there were national divisions for the top non-league sides, everyone was convinced these sides were clearly better than any team in the bottom half of the 2nd tier. There was a clear pattern in cup results after all, with the top non-league sides almost consistently beating the bottom half 2nd tier team, only on rare occasions they lost.

When a new tier between the 2nd tier and the old top non-league regional divisions got introduced, the top non-league teams & bottom 2nd tier teams started. The bottom 2nd tier team was expected to struggle because of the cup pattern & the fact they lost nearly half of their squad after relegation. Instead, they won the league and went straight back up. The first non-league side to get promoted have been near the bottom for a few years until their relegation last year, in previous seasons they were only saved because no 3rd tier teams wanted to get promoted (promotion is currently not mandatory). In reality, the gap between the divisions is bigger than anyone expected and the cup results are now (more accurately) explained with the fact that the 2nd tier sides often struggle with the completely different style of play of the 3rd tier teams in one-off cup games rather than actually being weaker.

That can easily be the case in Scotland too. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Kelty end up near the top of the LL and Bonnyrigg (or whatever team(s) might come up next season) will be soon as well. But we simply don't know for sure yet. Kelty's LL performances will definitely be something to watch.

Caley used to regularly skelp Scottish League teams in the cup, a bit like Lithgae and far better than Talbot who have still not beaten anybody. When Caley Thistle joined the league they obviously strengthened the squad and actually topped the table after 5 games but as the season went on it just got harder and harder. Eventually they finished 6th out of 10, 35 points behind the winners. Compared to the Highland League I thought the 3rd division was faster and more physical and the players were bigger and stronger and possibly less skilful.

Edited May 29, 2018 by The Mantis

[AlanCamelonfan]

3 minutes ago, Snafu said:

Define superior teams?

Is this the same as clubs?

Have you been to any LL games?

On this the Falkirk herald camera man told me that lowland league wasn' greathe.  Have you seen stirling uni? I replied yes I saw them tear shire a new arsehole at the Falkirk stadium. Only perception

 

4 minutes ago, Snafu said:

Define superior teams?

Is this the same as clubs?

Have you been to any LL games?

 

[AsimButtHitsASix]

What we need is an ELO system with five years of league/cup results inputted to find out the true ranking of Non-League clubs

[Khufu2]

49 minutes ago, Snafu said:

 

And again, for the 3rd fucking time have you been to any LL games?

 

 

Yes.

I've also seen LL teams up against junior teams.

How about you?

Edited May 29, 2018 by Khufu2

[Khufu2]

23 minutes ago, Snafu said:

Define superior teams?

Is this the same as clubs?

Have you been to any LL games?

1. Would generally win against them.

2. Yes.

3. Yes.

[Jason King]

12 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

I've also seen LL teams up against junior teams.

How nice for you.

Must have been nice to watch the relics of the past facing off against the white heat of the future.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Jason King

[The Moonster]

2 hours ago, Khufu2 said:

The league table tells it all. Mediocrity below the 4th place.

4	East Stirlingshire	30	19	7	4	67	31	7	5	3	28	19	12	2	1	39	12	+36	64
5	Selkirk	30	15	3	12	63	50	6	3	6	29	27	9	0	6	34	23	+13	48

 

Gross mediocrity below 5th place

6

Cumbernauld Colts

30

11

8

11

53

54

8

4

3

35

21

3

4

8

18

33

-1

41

If it's so pish, why didn't every junior club join it early, piss the league and work their way up the tables?  Because some of those clubs have no ambition to climb up the leagues, ergo, all this pish about the standard "not being good enough" for them to join is a complete red herring.

1 hour ago, Khufu2 said:

To the current 4 you can add Kelty next season. The season after you can add LTHV or Bonnyrigg, but  with 1 up 1 down it's going to take a while before all the mediocrity is weeded out and better teams replace them.

You mean, when stronger clubs join the league the standard improves? Slap me sideways, who'da thunk it?!

[redstarbenhar]

Everyone seems to be assuming a new WOSFL is going to happen but how easy is it to set up from a league from scratch to be operating within the pyramid for 19/20 season ? Someone, or some group, need to have a plan to make it happen and then deliver that plan.  Unless there have been clandestine get togethers to organise all there is at the moment is a blank sheet of paper.

[Khufu2]

2 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

If it's so pish, why didn't every junior club join it early, piss the league and work their way up the tables?  Because some of those clubs have no ambition to climb up the leagues, ergo, all this pish about the standard "not being good enough" for them to join is a complete red herring.

You mean, when stronger clubs join the league the standard improves? Slap me sideways, who'da thunk it?!

Jolly good, so you accept they will all be stronger than the current mediocrity and will indeed enhance the league. Well done.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

4 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

Jolly good, so you accept they will all be stronger than the current mediocrity and will indeed enhance the league. Well done.

No. He said "if"

[The Moonster]

Just now, Khufu2 said:

Jolly good, so you accept they will all be stronger than the current mediocrity and will indeed enhance the league. Well done.

It's what happens in every single league all over the world you complete muppet - the shite teams get relegated and the better ones get promoted.  Quite why a new league would be any different is anyone's guess. I fail to see how this supports your argument but if you want to claim sort of victory in this debate on that basis then wire in, I'll be sat over here with a beer and a belly full of laughter.

[Khufu2]

17 minutes ago, Jason King said:

How nice for you.

Must have been nice to watch the relics of the past facing off against the white heat of the future.

Oh dear. The idiocy of it. 

 

[FairWeatherFan]

3 minutes ago, redstarbenhar said:

Everyone seems to be assuming a new WOSFL is going to happen but how easy is it to set up from a league from scratch to be operating within the pyramid for 19/20 season ? Someone, or some group, need to have a plan to make it happen and then deliver that plan.  Unless there have been clandestine get togethers to organise all there is at the moment is a blank sheet of paper.

You've got the EoSFL offering support in setting things up from an admin perspective. Clydebank as a West of Scotland having applied to the EoSFL for 2019-20. While the West Region was the poorest performer in terms of Junior clubs saying yes to the 'current pyramid' there was a decent level of interest and no an incentive to work towards it with so many changes happening in the East. There will also have been the experience of setting up the Lowland League formally under relatively short order.

All you really need is 12 clubs to say yes and work from there. Right now if Clydebank are okay with the WoSFL, only 11 more clubs are required.