Junior football, what is the future?

[gaz5]

Just a bit of harmless pedantry here - but as you generally make no other spelling mistakes, I found it unusual you continuing to refer to it as a "Teir" when everyone else says "Tier".

Good spot!

It appears I have inadvertantly set the Swype keyboard on my phone to have the wrong spelling of Tier and I hadn't noticed!

Promptly corrected. [emoji846]

[Che Dail]

8 hours ago, mcruic said:

On playing strength, these teams would never be in the same Tier.  Eyemouth and Tweedmouth should be in a "South" regional division within the EoS.  Playing strength-wise, they're probably not much better (if at all) than some Border Amateur teams.

Exactly

[FairWeatherFan]

10 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Your proposal could see Tayport and St Andrews in the same league as Eyemouth and Tweedmouth... at this level of football is it really worthwhile?

For 2019/20 only. Also with Eyemouth and Tweedmouth finishing worst and 2nd worst across the EoS you'd only end up with one of those clubs. Because of that St Andrews are already guaranteed to play one of them in 2019/20 as it stands.

Based on their track records Tayport and St Andrews would either get promoted into the 2020/21 EoS Premier or the 2020/21 EoS First. Eyemouth and Tweedmouth would be in the 2020/21 EoS South.

 

 

[Ginaro]

So that's now both of the East Superleague winners in the previous four seasons having won the East of Scotland League and gained promotion* to the Lowland League. 

18 months ago in this thread @kefc talks about how they had tried to get a meeting with TJ and change the Juniors for the better. Imagine where we would be if the SJFA had listened to those concerns and pushed for a promotion opportunity to be put in place for the Superleague champions, instead of this upheaval to the EoS.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Ginaro

[Robert James]

16 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Never said finish bottom. Said be like Fort William as they've their entire time in the Highland League and have never finished higher than 11th. 

2 divisions with less clubs will give more of a level playing field and allow for more chance of a successful season. 3 divisions where those clubs clubs end up in the largest division will see less chance of a successful season.

Yes, Eyemouth, Tweedmouth, and Hawick RA have struggled last season, because of the "conference" leagues, which they accepted as it was the fairest way of integrating junior clubs into the EoSL/Pyramid.  Another season of conferences is planned, which may mean they may well have another difficult season in 2019/20. These clubs would probably prefer not to have another transitional season, but will I am sure, will accept it.

The situation at Fort William is entirely different, and any comparison (intended or otherwise) is misplaced in my view.  It is the only senior club in the West Highlands, and although it has an above average population (for Highland League towns), it has difficulty in attracting and retaining players of HFL calibre.  Rejoining the NCL was considered a year ago, but the club decided to reject this alternative. The main problem is its remoteness.  Travelling to away games is a nightmare for players and officials, as is emphasised by the following distances :

Fort William to :              Inverness  66 miles          Grantown on Spey  75  miles          Aberdeen  153 miles         Wick  166 miles                    ........each way.

By comparison, none of the EoSL clubs have travelling distances as great of these.  However Fort has confirmed that it intends to continue again next season, for the benefit of its young players, and as a Highland outpost for football followers.  As an aside, to correct an earlier poster's comments, the club played in the North Caledonian League from 1983 to 1985, when it joined the Highland League. Before joining the NCL, it had previously entered the Scottish Qualifying Cup, the North of Scotland Cup, and the Inverness Cup, as an unattached club. 

The club has recently been been the subject of a film (by James Baines) entitled "A Long Way To Winning", which has apparently had 65,000 hits on social media.   Worth a look.

Smaller, less fashionable clubs should always be applauded for their local community football spirit, regardless of their senior, junior or amateur status. Long may it continue.

[Che Dail]

10 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

For 2019/20 only. Also with Eyemouth and Tweedmouth finishing worst and 2nd worst across the EoS you'd only end up with one of those clubs. Because of that St Andrews are already guaranteed to play one of them in 2019/20 as it stands.

Based on their track records Tayport and St Andrews would either get promoted into the 2020/21 EoS Premier or the 2020/21 EoS First. Eyemouth and Tweedmouth would be in the 2020/21 EoS South.

 

 

Yes,  it is good, and similar to the ERJFA structure (albeit with all the 'north of Tay' clubs included). 

At this moment I'm not convinced the EoS first is needed, or how the majority of other clubs would view it.  The consensus from West Lothian based junior clubs seems to be a preference to return to a regional league, and I'm hinting at a solution which would give them pretty much exactly the same league as they are proposing for next season, just in the EoS Association, in order to help encourage them to switch en-masse now which in my opinion is the right thing to do for them and for Scottish Football pyramid at this level.

Maybe others would feel the same, with a preference for more local fixtures overall?  Travelling support for most clubs outwith the new EoS premier is minimal.

However, the 3 up 3 down was a good incentive in the East Premier to Super League, whereas if there is only one promotion from the regional leagues it makes the regional leagues a challenge to get out of. 

Pros and Cons with both.

[Kilbowie's Finest]

If the rest of the Fife and West Lothian Junior clubs switch to EoS now, three regional leagues at T7 could be formed:
- West (W.Lothian and beyond)
- Central (Fife + P&K)
- South (Edin, Lothians + Borders)
Clydebank would join the West league, which would add a tremendous incentive for the others.
And it means they don't have the long trips to  Eyemouth / Tweedmouth / Peebles, and vice-versa.
They'd also have entry to all the cup comps with LL and EoS Premier clubs, including one which allows access to the big Scottish.
Sorted?
 
 
 

As a West Lothian based Bankies fan I wholeheartedly endorse this plan [emoji6]🤣

[Burnie_man]

At least it’s finally sunk in with Maxwell and Petrie that solutions cannot be imposed without agreement.  There never was a “done deal”, the SJFA hierarchy lead their clubs right down the garden path which is frankly shameful and certain posters on here who banged that drum for months have disappeared.  It’s a prime example of why 26 clubs left the SJFA last year.

What needs to happen now is PWG needs a re-boot if we’re going to end up with a workable solution for 2020-2021.

Having another Association running leagues within the Pyramid will not work.  Remove the SJFA from the process, get the leagues round the table and talk to them individually as each league (West, East, North) requires a different solution.  The leagues themselves should be demanding this.

Reconfirm the HL/LL boundary so there is absolutely no ambiguity as to where clubs futures must lie, and in the East that means Tayside clubs future is with the North Juniors and Highland League if they want to enter the Pyramid  (the proposed split next season in the ERJFA already establishes that).

The WL and Fife clubs need to be advised that if they want the Pyramid, then they must join the EoS as the established tier 6 league in the East.

In the West, the way forward has to be a WoSFL free from the shackles of the SJFA.  If there is support to move that forward en-masse with the current set-up all well and good, if not then new WoSFL for those clubs who want to enter the Pyramid.

The “backstop” in all of this must be the SJFA continue to exist as a separate body to cater for those clubs who want to remain Junior and out with the Pyramid.  Don’t force clubs to do what they don’t want to do.

[Robert James]

4 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

At least it’s finally sunk in with Maxwell and Petrie that solutions cannot be imposed without agreement.  There never was a “done deal”, the SJFA hierarchy lead their clubs right down the garden path which is frankly shameful and certain posters on here who banged that drum for months have disappeared.  It’s a prime example of why 26 clubs left the SJFA last year.

What needs to happen now is PWG needs a re-boot if we’re going to end up with a workable solution for 2020-2021.

Having another Association running leagues within the Pyramid will not work.  Remove the SJFA from the process, get the leagues round the table and talk to them individually as each league (West, East, North) requires a different solution.  The leagues themselves should be demanding this.

Reconfirm the HL/LL boundary so there is absolutely no ambiguity as to where clubs futures must lie, and in the East that means Tayside clubs future is with the North Juniors and Highland League if they want to enter the Pyramid  (the proposed split next season in the ERJFA already establishes that).

The WL and Fife clubs need to be advised that if they want the Pyramid, then they must join the EoS as the established tier 6 league in the East.

In the West, the way forward has to be a WoSFL free from the shackles of the SJFA.  If there is support to move that forward en-masse with the current set-up all well and good, if not then new WoSFL for those clubs who want to enter the Pyramid.

The “backstop” in all of this must be the SJFA continue to exist as a separate body to cater for those clubs who want to remain Junior and out with the Pyramid.  Don’t force clubs to do what they don’t want to do.

Agree completely. 

The outcome of the Clydebank meeting will be interesting, especially if the club jumps ship now, rather than waiting another year to join the pyramid and get licensed, especially as their ground improvements, including floodlights, are due for completion by the end of this summer..

[archieb]

3 hours ago, Robert James said:

Agree completely. 

The outcome of the Clydebank meeting will be interesting, especially if the club jumps ship now, rather than waiting another year to join the pyramid and get licensed, especially as their ground improvements, including floodlights, are due for completion by the end of this summer..

Not very likely, as they've apparently no license application in the pipeline and all existing applications seem to be indefinitely on hold!

[mcruic]

4 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

The “backstop” in all of this must be the SJFA continue to exist as a separate body to cater for those clubs who want to remain Junior and out with the Pyramid.  Don’t force clubs to do what they don’t want to do.

Is it necessary to have a separate body for this?  You can remain "junior" and still be part of the Pyramid. There are clubs of varying degrees in the English pyramid - full-time, part-time, amateur.

I know there are a lot of people who want to remain "junior" - but do they even know what that means?  Because the juniors in the East is no longer "the Juniors" it was, with all of the big clubs having left.  So what do, for example, the Stoneyburns of this world get out of being junior that they can't get out of being junior in the pyramid?  They get to play the same Lothian and Edinburgh teams year in, year out (as they would if they were in the pyramid).  If all the big West clubs get to form a WoSFL, then all that will be left is some clubs from the lower divisions (i.e. the clubs will be playing as part of a lesser organisation, with no big clubs, and not even any prospect of playing them in knockout competitions).  Being part of a Pyramid doesn't necessarily mean anything has to change - the regulations lower down the pyramid do not need to be the same as those at the top.

As for the North of Tay thing - a few of the Angus teams may find travel to the North easier (Montrose, Brechin), but for those in Perthshire, I'm not so sure.  For example, I think it would make more sense if Coupar Angus won promotion from their "Tayside" regional league to go into a Tayside/Fife league rather than a Tayside/Aberdeenshire league.

As you say though - each region has different issues, and they all need to be talked to separately, and together (for boundary issues that affect ore than 1 region).

 

[glensmad]

9 minutes ago, mcruic said:

Being part of a Pyramid doesn't necessarily mean anything has to change...

That is the point I've been making for some time now. There is no reason to fear moving into the pyramid for the West Region teams as, for 99% of them, nothing will change in a negative sense. But the marketing opportunities will certainly be a positive.

Edited May 6, 2019 by glensmad

[Burnie_man]

26 minutes ago, mcruic said:

Is it necessary to have a separate body for this?  You can remain "junior" and still be part of the Pyramid. There are clubs of varying degrees in the English pyramid - full-time, part-time, amateur.

I know there are a lot of people who want to remain "junior" - but do they even know what that means?  Because the juniors in the East is no longer "the Juniors" it was, with all of the big clubs having left.  So what do, for example, the Stoneyburns of this world get out of being junior that they can't get out of being junior in the pyramid?  They get to play the same Lothian and Edinburgh teams year in, year out (as they would if they were in the pyramid).  If all the big West clubs get to form a WoSFL, then all that will be left is some clubs from the lower divisions (i.e. the clubs will be playing as part of a lesser organisation, with no big clubs, and not even any prospect of playing them in knockout competitions).  Being part of a Pyramid doesn't necessarily mean anything has to change - the regulations lower down the pyramid do not need to be the same as those at the top.

As for the North of Tay thing - a few of the Angus teams may find travel to the North easier (Montrose, Brechin), but for those in Perthshire, I'm not so sure.  For example, I think it would make more sense if Coupar Angus won promotion from their "Tayside" regional league to go into a Tayside/Fife league rather than a Tayside/Aberdeenshire league.

As you say though - each region has different issues, and they all need to be talked to separately, and together (for boundary issues that affect ore than 1 region).

 

Well the SJFA want to remain intact, and they clearly want to have access to the Pyramid and Licencing, but they also want a degree of control over discipline at certain levels. They want their cake and to eat it, but they've failed so far to achieve anything.

So no you dont need the SJFA at all, the leagues can run themselves and that is a major part of the problem.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Burnie_man

[mcruic]

Would it not be possible to have the SJFA governing Tier 7 and 8 football within the pyramid, but in partnership with the Highland and Lowland Leagues (as the EoS and SoS currently do at Tier 6)?  That way, they still exist, AND they are part of the Pyramid. The SAFA could govern Tier 9 and below.

 

[Burnie_man]

8 minutes ago, mcruic said:

Would it not be possible to have the SJFA governing Tier 7 and 8 football within the pyramid, but in partnership with the Highland and Lowland Leagues (as the EoS and SoS currently do at Tier 6)?  That way, they still exist, AND they are part of the Pyramid. The SAFA could govern Tier 9 and below.

Complete non-starter, there are clubs who left the SJFA last season who dont want anything to do with them,  there is no need for other Associations to be involved, let the leagues run leagues (and local cups)

[mcruic]

Are any of the SJFA's officials actually paid anything worthwhile (or at all)?  I could understand them wishing to retain their positions if that were the case, but otherwise, it all seems like posturing.

[Burnie_man]

Are any of the SJFA's officials actually paid anything worthwhile (or at all)?  I could understand them wishing to retain their positions if that were the case, but otherwise, it all seems like posturing.

Oh yes........

[Sergeant Wilson]

14 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Complete non-starter, there are clubs who left the SJFA last season who dont want anything to do with them,  there is no need for other Associations to be involved, let the leagues run leagues (and local cups)

More administration will tall to the relevant authorities, so vacancies will arise. The solution would be for the SJFA to disband. The redundant officials from the SJFA could apply for the variety of roles that would drop up. They would be part of the pyramid and would be line managed as such.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Sergeant Wilson

[Guest]

In relation to the sjfa, I believe that the current patrons have delivered nothing for their membership. They have been shown to misinform the majority of their membership and given a steer that they were in at tier 6 regardless.... Which they appear to have fallen way short of in reality.....which is a shame for  us all. We should all be salivating at the thought of a West feeder league next year and how much more stronger non league football in Scotland is, sadly we will face another year of waiting and guessing. 

I for one would be wholeheartedly against any of the current sjfa leadership having any role in tier 7 or 8 football. Given the turmoil they have created and problems they continue to generate, this should be considered a non starter. 

What I do hope though is that West clubs (a decent number) follow clydebanks lead and take their future in their own hands and breakaway to form a wosfl feeding the LL. I'm sure the eosfl would assist if required given the timescales. Then a new committee would be formed to run things for the clubs on behalf of the clubs....

[Burnie_man]

On 08/02/2019 at 16:45, locheeboy said:

Alan, I hope you go back to whoever is giving you duff information regarding the ERJFA not being in at Tier 6 and let him know he's made a cnut of you .........100% both the ERJFA & WRJFA are in the pryamid at Tier 6 for season 2019-20

 

On 08/02/2019 at 16:56, locheeboy said:

Burnie, as i have said many times, time will tell who is speaking the truth. I'm more than happy to print an apology if I am wrong hopefully you will be man enough to do the same. In a lot of ways I feel a wee bit sorry for you as I beleive you are being fed lies. Ask for the minutes from the November and January meetings. I have already told you the EoS reps were put in their place.  

 

On 08/02/2019 at 17:07, locheeboy said:

Alan, you and Burnieman can help each other wipe the egg off your faces 

 

On 08/02/2019 at 17:14, locheeboy said:

Go and tell your reps what I have printed and if they fancy court action I am more than up for it. As for answers to the other questions you are correct I do not have the answers because they have not been discussed as yet, What I do know is what I have put in print is fact.

Juniors in at Tier 6

Disciplne in line with the SFA but administered by the SJFA

Fixtures to be issued by the ERJFA & WRJFA  this is because the SFA do not have the man power. Check the minutes Laura Anderson clearly states that in a response to the EoS reps who nit pick all the way through the proceedings which led to them being put in their place. All I am saying is fact. Happy to discuss this face to face anytime anywhere. The facts are the facts.

 

On 08/02/2019 at 17:19, locheeboy said:

Alan, I am not saying they did not confirm that at the meeting. What I am saying is they are not reporting back truthfully. They have their own agenda , what I am looking forward to is what will they say when the truth does comes out.

 

On 08/02/2019 at 17:27, locheeboy said:

That's because he does not accept what the truth is and he is being fed lies at his end

 

On 08/02/2019 at 19:40, locheeboy said:

Nobody is ripping up anything the PWG has accepted the Juniors in at Tier 6 ....If a Tayside club wins the play off and they have their licence then they will progress to the LL.... EoS cannot veto that it is agreed ...... There is no mandate of all in or none. The North have a decison to make but from what I am hearing they are not interested. This will not have any effect on the ERJFA & WRJFA... 

Once again if I am wrong or spouting shite you will soon find out and I will happily take abuse.......can the same be said for Burnieman ?

 

OK feel free to print that apology anytime you like locheeboy, not only to me but to other posters plus the EoS board you accused of being untruthful.

I hope you've learned a lesson about placing trust in the word of one man. I'll provide the cloth to wipe the egg off your face.