Junior football, what is the future?

[LongTimeLurker]

15 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

...  Therefore the number of Tier 6 clubs for Season 2019/20 will be 32 (16 from EoSFL and 16 of the 18 clubs in the SoSFL).   Ultimately Tier 6 might comprise approximately 64 clubs and this would be a manageable number for the Scottish FA in terms of the JPP process”" ...

Which begged the question of whether 64 refers only to the LL feeders (16 SoS + 16 WRSJFA + 16 EoS + 16 ERSJFA) in this context or an HL feeder was factoring in somehow. We will have to wait for the leaks after the next PWG meeting to find out what the SFA's vision of the way ahead currently is on that.

Edited September 5, 2019 by LongTimeLurker

[LongTimeLurker]

15 minutes ago, Ped said:

Why couldn’t th sjfa compromised aswell then letting the west take there rightful place in tier 6 this season then used this year to work a solution for the east tayside and north regions with the LL and EOS leagues

Because that threatens the position of their officeholders. If each region starts doing its own thing there is no obvious need for a national association.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

1 minute ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Which begs the question of whether 64 refers only to the LL feeders (16 SoS + 16 WRSJFA + 16 EoS + 16 ERSJFA) in this context or an HL feeder was factoring in somehow. We will have to wait for the leaks after the next PWG meeting to find out what the SFA's vision of the way ahead currently is on that.

It could also mean a SOS +WRJFA+EOS+ (NRJFA).
The SFA would want the Highland section to be level in Tier 6 as well and suppose the North region could be that.
If they had elaborated on the letter then it would have been easier and not al the views and gossips of who  the other 16 couldl be.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

2 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Because that threatens the position of their officeholders. If each region starts doing its own thing there is no obvious need for a national association.

But that's what is genuinely happening and that's also why both East and West association juniors want to come as one, so they can keep their jobs.
If any association joins the SFA senior league then is it not the SFA need to organise it and state whos running/organising who.

[Burnie_man]

If we assume that the SJFA/SFA’s proposal to shoehorn the ERJFA in at tier 6 is effectively dead in the water, here are the four options as I see it that they have to move this issue towards a conclusion;

- Move the HL/LL boundary northwards in order to allow the full ERJFA into the LL area with the proviso of a full merger with EoS.

- Move the HL/LL boundary northwards and form a senior “Tayside League” out of the existing ERJFA north, which would contest a 4-way LL play-off with EoS/SoS/WoS. May also involve clubs from Perth/North Fife if they want it. ERJFA south clubs join EoS.

- Leave the HL/LL boundary as it currently is, merge the ERJFA south clubs into the EoS, with the ERJFA north clubs continuing alone with a merger/link-up to the NRJFA and eventually the HL. May also involve clubs from Perth/North Fife if they want it.

- Do nothing. Allow the ERJFA and EoS to co-exist, and leave it upto clubs to decide where they want to play, Junior or Senior. For south clubs that’s the EoS if they want pyramid access, or the HL if the north clubs want it.

Each option has it’s pros and cons, but realistically they’re probably the only options available.

However this matter needs to be dis-associated with what happens in the west in order to make progress, they both require different solutions.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Burnie_man

[LongTimeLurker]

24 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

...The Pyramid Working Group will be re-convened during next season....

This snippet is something Burnie_man should take note of.

8 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

It could also mean a SOS +WRJFA+EOS+ (NRJFA).
The SFA would want the Highland section to be level in Tier 6 as well and suppose the North region could be that.
If they had elaborated on the letter then it would have been easier and not al the views and gossips of who  the other 16 couldl be.

That's the situation in a nutshell. I suspect they are still referring to the ERSJFA given the HL feeder meetings stopped happening after the first one and the rest of what they are talking about refers to what's happening with the LL, but it's ambiguous.

6 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

But that's what is genuinely happening and that's also why both East and West association juniors want to come as one, so they can keep their jobs.
If any association joins the SFA senior league then is it not the SFA need to organise it and state whos running/organising who.

Just to be clear. It would be the SJFA officeholders that would be risking losing their blazers and in one case full-time job, if the SJFA doesn't join intact as a single entity.

Edited September 5, 2019 by LongTimeLurker

[Burnie_man]

Just now, LongTimeLurker said:

This snippet is something Burnie_man should take note of.

September was mentioned for next PWG, but that was several months ago and the SFA are not very good at sticking to timetables.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

22 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

This snippet is something Burnie_man should take note of.

That's the situation in a nutshell. I suspect they are still referring to the ERSJFA given the HL feeder meetings stopped happening after the first one and the rest of what they are talking about refers to what's happening with the LL, but it's ambiguous.

Just to be clear. It would be the SJFA officeholders that would be risking losing their blazers and in one case full-time job, if the SJFA doesn't join intact as a single entity.

Yip Longtimelurker, agreed
The SFA would obviously find it easier if the office bearers just moved over from the WRJFA and organise the WOS once its started.

I suppose the idea of the NRJFA moving to Tier 6 under the Highland league would be the easiest way for it all to fall into place so I'm sure the SFA would see this as the easiest move but obviously if the NRJFA don't want to join then it wont happen, but as previously stated by Pyramidic that if a WOS was started asap it would be a cause for stimulation and I believe the North would take note and might want to push ahead with the North joining as potentially most junior teams, East and West would be joining the senior ranks.

38 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

I follow this thread daily but the case from both sides has become tedious and repetitive.

It does seem so obvious if proper moves are made to form an independent Pyramid-friendly WoSL (by the SFA or others) it will wake up the WRJFA and they will then have every incentive for the 4 divisions of the WRJFA to move over "en-bloc" to the SFA Pyramid to avoid being dismembered.

The movement of the WRJFA to the Pyramid will then encourage movement of clubs within the ERJFA as they will perceive themselves as a lost cause.

The key strategy must be to start forming an independent Pyramid-friendly WoSL without delay.  NOW!

 

One question, if the EOS, my view quite rightly, don't want the ERJFA as a sperate entity and have them coming and join the EOS under tier 6 I take it then that most of the office bearers of the ERJFA wont have a job to go to either full or part time because the job is already being covered by the EOS staff ?

Edited September 5, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Gimme]

You are directly contradicting yourself in the same sentence. By vetoing a change to the LL playoff format they blocked junior entry at that particular point in the proceedings, so it is patently absurd to state that at no point have they blocked the juniors. If something as simple as that in logic terms is contentious I can understand why the PWG meetings on this topic dragged on for months going over the same old ground.

Spin it any way you want but the bottom line is that the self interest of the SJFA blazers is now costing clubs in the West cold hard cash.

[Burnie_man]

17 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

One question, if the EOS, my view quite rightly, don't want the ERJFA as a sperate entity and have them coming and join the EOS under tier 6 I take it then that most of the office bearers of the ERJFA wont have a job to go to either full or part time because the job is already being covered by the EOS staff ?

The EoS do not have any full time staff (neither do ERJFA), and they share the League Secretary's role with the LL.  The ERJFA Secretary's remuneration a few years ago was around £6,000/£7,000 PA, it's probably more now, which is vastly more than anyone connected to the EoS.

The WRJFA Secretary's remuneration is more than the ERJFA I believe (it used to be), and the SJFA Secretary is fulltime and paid c£35k a year.

[LongTimeLurker]

 

17 minutes ago, Gimme said:

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

You are directly contradicting yourself in the same sentence. By vetoing a change to the LL playoff format they blocked junior entry at that particular point in the proceedings, so it is patently absurd to state that at no point have they blocked the juniors. If something as simple as that in logic terms is contentious I can understand why the PWG meetings on this topic dragged on for months going over the same old ground.

Spin it any way you want but the bottom line is that the self interest of the SJFA blazers is now costing clubs in the West cold hard cash.

 

Statements of fact over what position the SFA was siding with in PWG meetings and over the EoS having blocked said position from being implemented do not equate to support for that position or blaming anybody for what happened.

Edited September 5, 2019 by LongTimeLurker

[Bestsinceslicebread]

15 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

The EoS do not have any full time staff (neither do ERJFA), and they share the League Secretary's role with the LL.  The ERJFA Secretary's remuneration a few years ago was around £6,000/£7,000 PA, it's probably more now, which is vastly more than anyone connected to the EoS.

The WRJFA Secretary's remuneration is more than the ERJFA I believe (it used to be), and the SJFA Secretary is fulltime and paid c£35k a year.

Thanks for that Burnie_man
I didn't know the in and outs of the wages and who gets what or who is full or part time, now I have an idea but I was more concerned that if some of the ERJFA wont have a job to go to then that's the only reason why they would want the ERJFA as a separate association in at tier 6. This is one of the reason why there is problems joining.    I believe the same problem would apply is there was already a WOS and the WRJFA wanted to apply but there isn't so all the office bearers of the WRJFA will just easily slot into the same roles they are doing right now.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread

[gaz5]

You are directly contradicting yourself in the same sentence. By vetoing a change to the LL playoff format they blocked junior entry at that particular point in the proceedings, so it is patently absurd to state that at no point have they blocked the juniors. If something as simple as that in logic terms is contentious I can understand why the PWG meetings on this topic dragged on for months going over the same old ground.

You seem to be lost in one event in the series, without offering any cognisance of what preceded or proceeded it.

Saying no to a terrible proposal that happened to include the juniors while offering a second, more workable solution that included the juniors != "Blocking the juniors".

Run of events:

1. Unworkable plan presented by the SJFA
2. SJFA members vote to accept it "all in"
3. North dropped from "all in" by the SJFA, reason speculated as being lack of interest
4. Plan presented to PWG
5. Lots of back and forth in PWG, seemingly ltd of misunderstanding and certainly lots of misinformation around done deals etc
6. Eventually the proposal is called to a vote by members of EoS and LL
7. Priposal declared unworkable by 100% of EoS and LL clubs, not on the basis that it contained the juniors, but that it unnecessarily had two geographic league's in the same region, one containing clubs who could never be promoted, as had been speculated for over a year
8. Counter proposal put forward by the EoS that included the juniors. West structure intact at Tier 6, East clubs joining the EoS at Tier 7 (Conferences), Tayside clubs in a Tayside league. The West were invited to join for this season, delaying the East and Tayside for a year for further discussion if required
9. SJFA do not take that proposal to their membership
10. Impasse reached, meaning the SFA declares no Juniors for this season

Now, you are of course free to interpret that as "The EoS and LL blocked the juniors", but clearly you would be wrong, as has been pointed out several times.

They said no to the first (terrible) proposal, a position which was consistently held throughout, which happened to include the juniors. They then put put forward a pragmatic, workable alternative, which also included the juniors, which would have seen the juniors in the Pyramid right now.

Is your argument that proposing a workable solution in place of an unworkable one, that would have seen all West and East Junior teams in the pyramid right now, was actually them actively blocking junior entry?

If so, you can understand the ridicule that position is being treated with by some, surely.

[drs]

32 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Statements of fact over what position the SFA was siding with in PWG meetings and over the EoS having blocked said position from being implemented do not equate to support for that position or blaming anybody for what happened.

How many times are you going to repeat this lie?

How many times are you going to be told its a lie before it actually sinks in?

 

[Jeek]

For the west

1. Create WOSFL
2. Invite applicants from the west
3. Go with what you have, be it 6, 16 or 60
4. Forget about those who aren't / weren't interested.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

4 minutes ago, Jeek said:

For the west

1. Create WOSFL
2. Invite applicants from the west
3. Go with what you have, be it 6, 16 or 60
4. Forget about those who aren't / weren't interested.
 

Agreed out of all the problems that has been ongoing , a  WOS should be started straight away with a structured boundary.
If the WRJFA don't join as a whole, then invite applicants, I'm sure a few will apply so meaning its a start.

If the WRJFA join as a whole, its means there will be no junior teams in the West and there's a good chance it will mean the East and North junior teams will get itchy feet and you will start seeing moves to join the senior/pyramid ranks

[TheLad]

Prediction for May 2020.

The PWG, after a few half hearted meetings which started in November 2019 and promised much, with teams in East and West convinced they were definitely in the pyramid, closes for the summer just unable to reach agreement for season 2020/21.

The teams in the west will have waited all season for someone to come up with a proposal for a WOS league and lay down the foundations. Unfortunately no big team took the plunge so the others waited. No one in the SJFA or SFA made the moves, as they have no motivation to and so nothing happened.

Teams in East Region wanted to propel straight into tier 6 so that obviously am option so they didn't progress anything else.

No one in the north wanted any change so it didn't happen.

This thread extended to 8000 pages, 7988 of which amounted to blame and accusations of lies.

The SFA beaks wondered what all the fuss was about, why cant they just play in the same set up? While all the while making no sweeping decision as it isn't worth the hassle.

Auchinleck win the league and Scottish Cup.

[LongTimeLurker]

^^^sounds about right, unfortunately.

[Robert James]

19 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

I said a wee while ago that they should start with a quick win first, get the west in.  Personally I think the SFA/EoS/SoS should help set-up a WoSL and leave clubs to apply or not. Give them a choice to stay Junior or join a Senior league as that option already exists in the east for South of Tay clubs.

Then the PWG turn their attention to the East/Tayside/North issue which isn't as pressing or straightforward.

We don 't always agree with each other's posts, but this one from you is spot on.

The PWG/SFA  should

(1) formally offer the incorporation of the West Junior divisions into the pyramid, with effect from 2020/21, also making it clear that if the SJFA rejects this offer by (say) 30th November 2019, the SFA will announce the proposed formation of a new West of Scotland League, to be in place in time for 2020/21.  If this offer is rejected by the SJFA/WRJFA, the SFA will appoint an interim Management Committee, for one season only, with WoSL member clubs implementing a new Management Team for 2021/22  and beyond.

(2) formally announce that there will be no pyramid changes for the East or North juniors in 2020/21, pending (i)  a full review of the Highland/Lowland boundary, and, (II)  a review of the Tayside and North regions, to see if it is possible to reach agreement on a tier 6 structure for for the future. This review.will be undertaken (as a separate pyramid priority) by the SFA, in conjunction with  the existing (senior) pyramid leagues, the new WoSL (If formed), the  North & East Junior Leagues, and the NCL. The SPFA will also be involved in relation to the boundary part of this review. Both to be concluded in time for the 2021/22 .

If  the above fails, it will be for the individual junior (and amateur) clubs to make their own applications to join the EoSL, SoSL, or Highland League, if they want to join the Scottish pyramid, or to remain outside it.  Participation in the Scottish Cup, for the champions of each of the 3 Junior Leagues, will be withdrawn  from 2021/22, on the basis that these leagues have declined to join the pyramid..

In my opinion, all of the non-league clubs in Scotland, will be relieved to see the present ongoing uncertainty, being brought to an end......quickly.

 

[LongTimeLurker]

41 minutes ago, drs said:

How many times are you going to repeat this lie?

How many times are you going to be told its a lie before it actually sinks in?

^^^prime example of why progress is difficult and meetings on this topic will go over the same ground over and over. Some people are so ingrained in their tribalism that they can hold two contradictory beliefs at the same time in an Orwellian doublethink sort of way. We vetoed the plan but at no point blocked its key component from happening, we have always been at war with Eurasia...