Granny Danger Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Just now, invergowrie arab said: I'll ask one then. What did you hope to achieve by voting leave and how do you think it's going? I'll fully admit this issue "triggers" me. I’ve already explained this on previous occasions and have no intention of doing so again. What I will repeat is that it was a stupid decision which I regret. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee-Bey Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Corbyn is barely 2 points ahead of the Tories who are in the midst of a civil war with a lame duck leader and are probably the most shambolic and scandal hit government in living memory. Whilst it's a nice thought, the idea that we're on the cusp of a glorious socialist revolution is misguided imo. Corbyn will never win an overall majority and any coalition with the Lib Dems and SNP (and the centrists in his own party) would severely water down his radical policies and end with the inevitable vote of no confidence and a return of the Tories. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 5 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: I’ve already explained this on previous occasions and have no intention of doing so again. What I will repeat is that it was a stupid decision which I regret. Fair fucks I hadnt seen it I dip in and out of here these days. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 14 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said: Corbyn is barely 2 points ahead of the Tories who are in the midst of a civil war with a lame duck leader and are probably the most shambolic and scandal hit government in living memory. Whilst it's a nice thought, the idea that we're on the cusp of a glorious socialist revolution is misguided imo. Corbyn will never win an overall majority and any coalition with the Lib Dems and SNP (and the centrists in his own party) would severely water down his radical policies and end with the inevitable vote of no confidence and a return of the Tories. I think declaring one way or the other that the Tories or Labour conclusively won't take an overall majority is wishful thinking more than anything else. Labour increased their vote share substantially at the last election and increased it by millions compared to 2015 and there's no reason to doubt they can't go one better this time. You only have to watch the BBC doc following Kinnock around yesterday to see what literally everyone expected to happen back in June and how shocking it was that it didn't. If mandatory reselections are brought in then there's every chance the PLP melts will be looking for new careers anyway. Interesting you think that the SNP would demand a watering down of his radical policies though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loondave1 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Corbyn is barely 2 points ahead of the Tories who are in the midst of a civil war with a lame duck leader and are probably the most shambolic and scandal hit government in living memory. Whilst it's a nice thought, the idea that we're on the cusp of a glorious socialist revolution is misguided imo. Corbyn will never win an overall majority and any coalition with the Lib Dems and SNP (and the centrists in his own party) would severely water down his radical policies and end with the inevitable vote of no confidence and a return of the Tories. He is more likely to win an overall majority than the SNP are to win an independence vote thats the important bit.I would welcome an anti Tory coalition Govt but you i fear would rather it didn't happen as a Tory Govt is an important bit of the Indy campaign.Would you welcome a succesful coalition or is it "all or nothing" for you ? I will rephrase that.Would you be happy to see an coalition involving the SNP at WM or would you see it as an obstacle watering down grievance politics ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 He is more likely to win an overall majority than the SNP are to win an independence vote thats the important bit.I would welcome an anti Tory coalition Govt but you i fear would rather it didn't happen as a Tory Govt is an important bit of the Indy campaign.Would you welcome a succesful coalition or is it "all or nothing" for you ? I will rephrase that.Would you be happy to see an coalition involving the SNP at WM or would you see it as an obstacle watering down grievance politics ? Successive labour leaders have ruled out coalitions at WM. f**k sake Milliband was happier losing an election rather than forming one.Maybe they aren't as anti Tory as you think. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 21 minutes ago, Loondave1 said: He is more likely to win an overall majority than the SNP are to win an independence vote thats the important bit.I would welcome an anti Tory coalition Govt but you i fear would rather it didn't happen as a Tory Govt is an important bit of the Indy campaign.Would you welcome a succesful coalition or is it "all or nothing" for you ? I will rephrase that.Would you be happy to see an coalition involving the SNP at WM or would you see it as an obstacle watering down grievance politics ? Are you either unable or unwilling to move beyond such a myopic view of Scottish politics? "Grievance politics" is a term thrown at the SNP by others with little justification. There is no grievance in believing that Scotland is capable of attending to it's own affairs just fine, or indeed might by more optimally disposed to do so, than by central rule from Westminster. In which case a coalition with the SNP in it is nothing to be feared, nor a majority Labour rule, which under Corbyn is likely to be as tone deaf to Scotland as any Tory Prime Minister anyway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loondave1 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Successive labour leaders have ruled out coalitions at WM. f**k sake Milliband was happier losing an election rather than forming one.Maybe they aren't as anti Tory as you think. Milliband had to shoot down the SNP coalition gig as he would have been completely monstered by the SUN, Daily Mail,Telegraph etc etc stoking up English nationalism and not a chance of forming a coalition after that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee-Bey Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 41 minutes ago, NotThePars said: I think declaring one way or the other that the Tories or Labour conclusively won't take an overall majority is wishful thinking more than anything else. Labour increased their vote share substantially at the last election and increased it by millions compared to 2015 and there's no reason to doubt they can't go one better this time. You only have to watch the BBC doc following Kinnock around yesterday to see what literally everyone expected to happen back in June and how shocking it was that it didn't. If mandatory reselections are brought in then there's every chance the PLP melts will be looking for new careers anyway. Interesting you think that the SNP would demand a watering down of his radical policies though. They could well be the largest party after the next GE, I just don't see how they get the required numbers in certain parts of England to win an overall majority with Corbyn and McDonnell in charge. Labour should be streets ahead in the polls atm, but they're not. All just IMO of course, but I'm pretty confident in that regard. As for the bit in bold, Renton described earlier the 'managerial', risk averse strategy the SNP employ. I'm sure they'd want a watering down of his radical stance on Brexit. They would probably be broadly supportive of most of his programme, unless he goes full Marx on corporation tax and the higher tax rate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loondave1 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Are you either unable or unwilling to move beyond such a myopic view of Scottish politics? "Grievance politics" is a term thrown at the SNP by others with little justification. There is no grievance in believing that Scotland is capable of attending to it's own affairs just fine, or indeed might by more optimally disposed to do so, than by central rule from Westminster. In which case a coalition with the SNP in it is nothing to be feared, nor a majority Labour rule, which under Corbyn is likely to be as tone deaf to Scotland as any Tory Prime Minister anyway. I'm fine with an SNP, Labour coalition govt so if nationalists are as well maybe tone down the anti Corbyn a bit ? Greater good and all that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said: They could well be the largest party after the next GE, I just don't see how they get the required numbers in certain parts of England to win an overall majority with Corbyn and McDonnell in charge. Labour should be streets ahead in the polls atm, but they're not. All just IMO of course, but I'm pretty confident in that regard. As for the bit in bold, Renton described earlier the 'managerial', risk averse strategy the SNP employ. I'm sure they'd want a watering down of his radical stance on Brexit. They would probably be broadly supportive of most of his programme, unless he goes full Marx on corporation tax and the higher tax rate. I think historically they would've normally been streets ahead in the polls it's just that the top two parties now occupy roughly 40+% of the polls, right? Maybe in the recent past when the Lib Dems and UKIP were anything other than an electoral irrelevance there was probably space to move 10-15% ahead but it's a two horse race again and Corbyn's Labour is sufficiently radical that I doubt it'll break 45%. That's still enough to win a majority if they begin to recover Scotland. Again, it's all conjecture at this stage but I don't think the task is any more difficult than it was 6 months ago. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loondave1 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 They could well be the largest party after the next GE, I just don't see how they get the required numbers in certain parts of England to win an overall majority with Corbyn and McDonnell in charge. Labour should be streets ahead in the polls atm, but they're not. All just IMO of course, but I'm pretty confident in that regard. As for the bit in bold, Renton described earlier the 'managerial', risk averse strategy the SNP employ. I'm sure they'd want a watering down of his radical stance on Brexit. They would probably be broadly supportive of most of his programme, unless he goes full Marx on corporation tax and the higher tax rate. I would take the "largest party" scenario right now.Im pragmatic about working with the SNP if that's what is required to end Tory rule but always feel nationalists see Labour success as a barrier to advancing Indy and attack Corbyn for that reason. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 1 minute ago, Loondave1 said: I'm fine with an SNP, Labour coalition govt so if nationalists are as well maybe tone down the anti Corbyn a bit ? Greater good and all that. Maybe if Corbyn toned down the anti-SNP rhetoric? Last time he was up here, the Tories barely got a word against them, while Corbyn blustered around touring SNP-Lab marginals and not a single Tory held seat. A strategy that would not actually get Corbyn any closer to government. Meanwhile, Comrade Leonard spent his first day in office warping the situation around BiFab to somehow try and paint ScotGov as bad guys in a dispute where they were on the same side as the Comrade's fraternal Unions. A wee bit of give and take, eh? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, Loondave1 said: I would take the "largest party" scenario right now.Im pragmatic about working with the SNP if that's what is required to end Tory rule but always feel nationalists see Labour success as a barrier to advancing Indy and attack Corbyn for that reason. I think this is bang on btw. I was guilty of it myself for a good year after Corbyn's initial victory. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee-Bey Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 44 minutes ago, Loondave1 said: He is more likely to win an overall majority than the SNP are to win an independence vote thats the important bit.I would welcome an anti Tory coalition Govt but you i fear would rather it didn't happen as a Tory Govt is an important bit of the Indy campaign.Would you welcome a succesful coalition or is it "all or nothing" for you ? I will rephrase that.Would you be happy to see an coalition involving the SNP at WM or would you see it as an obstacle watering down grievance politics ? I'd rather have Ann Budge and Craig Levein in charge than the Tories m8. It is 'all or nothing' for me, 5 years ago I would have been delighted with a proper federal settlement. That ship has now long sailed off into the distance. I'd happily have the SNP in coalition at WM winning concessions for Scotland and working with Labour on a social democratic platform for the whole UK. It would be another step towards Independence. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loondave1 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 I think this is bang on btw. I was guilty of it myself for a good year after Corbyn's initial victory. Don't agree with me I'm not used to it and it makes me nervous. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loondave1 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Maybe if Corbyn toned down the anti-SNP rhetoric? Last time he was up here, the Tories barely got a word against them, while Corbyn blustered around touring SNP-Lab marginals and not a single Tory held seat. A strategy that would not actually get Corbyn any closer to government. Meanwhile, Comrade Leonard spent his first day in office warping the situation around BiFab to somehow try and paint ScotGov as bad guys in a dispute where they were on the same side as the Comrade's fraternal Unions. A wee bit of give and take, eh? Fair enough we can start tomorrow. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loondave1 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 I'd rather have Ann Budge and Craig Levein in charge than the Tories m8. It is 'all or nothing' for me, 5 years ago I would have been delighted with a proper federal settlement. That ship has now long sailed off into the distance. I'd happily have the SNP in coalition at WM winning concessions for Scotland and working with Labour on a social democratic platform for the whole UK. It would be another step towards Independence. The danger for you is that the coalition scenario actually works and decreases the appetite for Indy. Its difficult to forecast the after effects of a coalition. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee-Bey Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Just now, Loondave1 said: The danger for you is that the coalition scenario actually works and decreases the appetite for Indy. Its difficult to forecast the after effects of a coalition. The likely scenario is that the coalition falls apart with both sides blaming each other, the Tories get back in and we're back to square one. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee-Bey Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Btw, you Labour bois have some brass neck criticising nationalists for attacking Corbyn given the utter state of Slab this last decade. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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