Minimum Alcohol Pricing

[Peppino Impastato]

20 minutes ago, strichener said:

 

I was asked for reasons, not figures, "Champ".

The bolded bit would be a great slogan for the next SNP campaign. 

Give me the figures that prove otherwise then

 

 

Your words champ

[welshbairn]

Here's some figures for you to scrap over.

https://theferret.scot/scotlands-budget-fact-check-income-tax/

[strichener]

3 hours ago, Peppino Impastato said:

Give me the figures that prove otherwise then

 

 

Your words champ

Go and find them yourself, I have already given you the pointers.  I am happy with my position based on the facts that I have posted.  If you dispute these then Inlook forward to your reasoning (and figures if it proves your point).

[strichener]

3 hours ago, welshbairn said:

Here's some figures for you to scrap over.

https://theferret.scot/scotlands-budget-fact-check-income-tax/

I think that must have been printed before the deal with the Greens as the effective tax breaknwas taken away by increasing further the income tax burden on above average earners.

[Larry Hood]

21 hours ago, strichener said:

It isn't for people earning above the average wage.

 

6 hours ago, strichener said:

Of course I wouldn't state every single taxpayer on above-average earnings is paying more. 

 

 

[welshbairn]

17 minutes ago, Larry Hood said:

 

 

Paying more in income tax is not the same as overall tax. You'd have to calculate how much each individual smokes and drinks for a start to rule out anyone on a high income in the rest of the UK paying more tax.

[lichtgilphead]

5 hours ago, strichener said:

As you are clearly taking in every tax (1) this would be impossible as personal consumption would have to be taken into account along with the house that each above-average earning person pays (2) council tax for, (3) how efficient their car is and how much they use it, who often the (4) travel by air, how often they move house etc. etc..  There is also the consideration of what services are covered by your council tax and these vary from council to council but are manifestly different between Scotland and England (excl. London) where the (4)fire services and police services are part-funded through local taxation rather than centrally as is the case in Scotland.

However, I am willing to be shown as incorrect that when you take all tax into account that those on above-average earnings are, on average, paying more than other areas of the UK.  The simple facts are that council tax is higher in Scotland when looking at the tax levied on a property value basis, income tax is higher, (5) LBTT is higher that SDLT, (6) Scotland has paid higher than average Alcohol, VAT and Tobacco taxes etc. etc.

Give me the figures that prove otherwise then.  The SNP government has a difficult task in attempting to increase the tax-take whilst not losing voters.  Their recent financial policies have shown that they are aware that they are more likely to get votes from those that are not in the ABC1 socio-demographic classification.

(1) this would be impossible

No it is not. All we have to do is compare taxes where a different rate is charged in Scotland as compared to England

(2) council tax

Average Band D Council tax in England 2017/18 = £1519 Average band D Council Tax in Scotland 2017/18 = £1173 (source here)

In real life, this means that the average Scot is £346 better off for a comparable house. Your attempt to link the council tax rate to the property value is a meaningless comparison. 

(3) how efficient their car is and how much they use it

If our Scottish & English taxpayers both drive an average distance in their average car, they will both pay the same tax, surely? Are you perhaps suggesting that Scots pay some sort of additional  fuel surcharge?

4) travel by air

Same tax north & south of the border, I believe?

(4) fire services and police services are part-funded through local taxation

Assuming (and this is a big assumption) that police & fire services cost a similar amount per capita, what does it matter which pot it is taken from? The taxpayer still pays for it.

(5) LBTT is higher that SDLT

Is it? A private person buying a main residential property pays less LBTT than SDLT between £125K & £145K. Outside that window, LBTT & SDLT are charged at the same rates up to £250K. 

The average property price in Scotland (August 2017) was £146,354

I note that you make no refererence to the higher house prices in parts of England in this comparison, unlike your council tax example. I wonder why?

I also note that 60 per cent of adults (including myself) have lived in the same house for more than 15 years, so it's hardly a huge factor in my tax planning.

(6) Scotland has paid higher than average Alcohol, VAT and Tobacco taxes etc.

Alcohol, VAT & Tobacco taxes are set by Westminster. As far as I am aware, they are the same across the whole UK. I accept that minimum pricing for alcohol in Scotland will increase the VAT take levied by the UK government per bottle, but it is too early to determine whether the total take will increase or decrease as purchasing patterns in Scotland adapt to the new regime. 

Alcohol & tobacco taxes (and VAT to a far lesser extent) are determined by lifestyle choices. For example, I pay £0 in tobacco taxes. However, our hypothetical average taxpayer will pay the same tax across the UK, unless he chooses to drink cheap cider etc.

CONCLUSION

Most of your examples result in our average Scot paying much the same as his equivalent person elsewhere in the UK. The main exception is Council Tax, which is significantly cheaper.

I note that you haven't addressed income tax at all.  Welshbairn has already provided some figures, so I don't intend to go over all that ground again.

I'll just qoute one statistic from his link

Analyisis from ICAS found that for the 2.2 million basic rate taxpayers in Scotland, 1.4 million “will be marginally better off than those in the rest of the UK whereas the remaining 800,000 will have a slightly increased tax bill.”

1.1 million of these taxpayers will be equal to or below the average (median) wage. They will all pay less tax.

0.3 million of these taxpayers will be equal to or above the average (median) wage. They will also pay less tax.

0.8 million of these taxpayers are above the average (median) wage. They will pay slightly more income tax. Whether this slight increase in income tax is greater than the average £346 saving in Council tax is unknown. Even if 50% of these taxpayers are paying >£346 more income tax (which I would suggest is highly unlikely), we still have a situation where 0.7 million people on above average wages are paying less tax, whilst only 0.4 million are paying more tax.

[strichener]

1 hour ago, lichtgilphead said:

(1) this would be impossible

No it is not. All we have to do is compare taxes where a different rate is charged in Scotland as compared to England

(2) council tax

Average Band D Council tax in England 2017/18 = £1519 Average band D Council Tax in Scotland 2017/18 = £1173 (source here)

In real life, this means that the average Scot is £346 better off for a comparable house. Your attempt to link the council tax rate to the property value is a meaningless comparison. 

(3) how efficient their car is and how much they use it

If our Scottish & English taxpayers both drive an average distance in their average car, they will both pay the same tax, surely? Are you perhaps suggesting that Scots pay some sort of additional  fuel surcharge?

4) travel by air

Same tax north & south of the border, I believe?

(4) fire services and police services are part-funded through local taxation

Assuming (and this is a big assumption) that police & fire services cost a similar amount per capita, what does it matter which pot it is taken from? The taxpayer still pays for it.

(5) LBTT is higher that SDLT

Is it? A private person buying a main residential property pays less LBTT than SDLT between £125K & £145K. Outside that window, LBTT & SDLT are charged at the same rates up to £250K. 

The average property price in Scotland (August 2017) was £146,354

I note that you make no refererence to the higher house prices in parts of England in this comparison, unlike your council tax example. I wonder why?

I also note that 60 per cent of adults (including myself) have lived in the same house for more than 15 years, so it's hardly a huge factor in my tax planning.

(6) Scotland has paid higher than average Alcohol, VAT and Tobacco taxes etc.

Alcohol, VAT & Tobacco taxes are set by Westminster. As far as I am aware, they are the same across the whole UK. I accept that minimum pricing for alcohol in Scotland will increase the VAT take levied by the UK government per bottle, but it is too early to determine whether the total take will increase or decrease as purchasing patterns in Scotland adapt to the new regime. 

Alcohol & tobacco taxes (and VAT to a far lesser extent) are determined by lifestyle choices. For example, I pay £0 in tobacco taxes. However, our hypothetical average taxpayer will pay the same tax across the UK, unless he chooses to drink cheap cider etc.

CONCLUSION

Most of your examples result in our average Scot paying much the same as his equivalent person elsewhere in the UK. The main exception is Council Tax, which is significantly cheaper.

I note that you haven't addressed income tax at all.  Welshbairn has already provided some figures, so I don't intend to go over all that ground again.

I'll just qoute one statistic from his link

Analyisis from ICAS found that for the 2.2 million basic rate taxpayers in Scotland, 1.4 million “will be marginally better off than those in the rest of the UK whereas the remaining 800,000 will have a slightly increased tax bill.”

1.1 million of these taxpayers will be equal to or below the average (median) wage. They will all pay less tax.

0.3 million of these taxpayers will be equal to or above the average (median) wage. They will also pay less tax.

0.8 million of these taxpayers are above the average (median) wage. They will pay slightly more income tax. Whether this slight increase in income tax is greater than the average £346 saving in Council tax is unknown. Even if 50% of these taxpayers are paying >£346 more income tax (which I would suggest is highly unlikely), we still have a situation where 0.7 million people on above average wages are paying less tax, whilst only 0.4 million are paying more tax.

1. Yes it is as has already been pointed out on previous posts.  We don't have to compare the taxes that are levied at different amounts, you also need to know individual consumption and the level of taxation levied on that consumption.  However we do know that in general Scots pay more in VAT, alcohol and tobacco taxes than the remainder of the UK and I not sure if there are statistics on how this is split between income categories.

2. Let's make the not unrealistic assumption that above average earners live in above average properties to a greater degree than below average earners.  With this entirely reasonable assumption the Band D property band is irrelevant and the greater multipliers on above average properties will adversely affect those with above average income.  The link between which houses above average earners are more likely to own is fare more representative than using Band D averages.  Your point may have been valid when the UK had single ratios for bands but that is no longer the case.

3 & 4. You asked me to confirm that every above average earner would pay more in tax.  You then revert to using averages to attempt to make your case.

4. Once more you are either being deliberately dishonest or naive.  You have already mentioned the lower average council tax band which in terms of verifiable expense is one of the easier taxes to measure.  However comparison between what this covers in England compared to Scotland a factor in any differences in levy.  If I were to be as liberal with interpretation  then I would say that in Scotland we should include Sewage and Water charges as these are, for the majority of households, another tax on your property value.  Would that be comparing like for like?  No.  But then you don't appear to believe that it is important to do so.

(4). As with 2 above, it is more likely that above average earners will buy above average properties and comparatives between the charges on the above average properties show that Scotland is more expensive.  The reason that I didn't make mention of the higher house prices in England was that the banding for the charge already reflect this.

5. Once again reverting to the assumption that the average between the UK is the same when there are figures that show that Scotland already contributes more for these taxes, even before minimum pricing adds to this.

6. You make assumptions for which you have no data and use a figure (£346) which by definition is based on the average of all households and not just those with above average incomes.

 

[Peppino Impastato]

5 hours ago, strichener said:

Go and find them yourself, I have already given you the pointers.  I am happy with my position based on the facts that I have posted.  If you dispute these then Inlook forward to your reasoning (and figures if it proves your point).

You haven't provided any facts champ, you made baseless assertions with no supporting figures.  Let's see your working.

[lichtgilphead]

1 hour ago, strichener said:

1. Yes it is as has already been pointed out on previous posts.  We don't have to compare the taxes that are levied at different amounts, you also need to know individual consumption and the level of taxation levied on that consumption.  However we do know that in general Scots pay more in VAT, alcohol and tobacco taxes than the remainder of the UK and I not sure if there are statistics on how this is split between income categories.

2. Let's make the not unrealistic assumption that above average earners live in above average properties to a greater degree than below average earners.  With this entirely reasonable assumption the Band D property band is irrelevant and the greater multipliers on above average properties will adversely affect those with above average income.  The link between which houses above average earners are more likely to own is fare more representative than using Band D averages.  Your point may have been valid when the UK had single ratios for bands but that is no longer the case.

3 & 4. You asked me to confirm that every above average earner would pay more in tax.  You then revert to using averages to attempt to make your case.

4. Once more you are either being deliberately dishonest or naive.  You have already mentioned the lower average council tax band which in terms of verifiable expense is one of the easier taxes to measure.  However comparison between what this covers in England compared to Scotland a factor in any differences in levy.  If I were to be as liberal with interpretation  then I would say that in Scotland we should include Sewage and Water charges as these are, for the majority of households, another tax on your property value.  Would that be comparing like for like?  No.  But then you don't appear to believe that it is important to do so.

(4). As with 2 above, it is more likely that above average earners will buy above average properties and comparatives between the charges on the above average properties show that Scotland is more expensive.  The reason that I didn't make mention of the higher house prices in England was that the banding for the charge already reflect this.

5. Once again reverting to the assumption that the average between the UK is the same when there are figures that show that Scotland already contributes more for these taxes, even before minimum pricing adds to this.

6. You make assumptions for which you have no data and use a figure (£346) which by definition is based on the average of all households and not just those with above average incomes.

 

Does your numbering system above bear any relationship to my numbered points above, or are you adopting a scattergun approach in an attempt to confuse the matter further? For the avoidance of doubt, I'm referring below to your 6 numbered points above- including both point 4's

1.  You admit that you have no idea about the split between income categories. Accordingly, you have failed to prove your original contention that Scots taxpayers on above average income pay more alcohol, VAT & tobacco taxes than rUK equivalents

2. Assuming that bands E, F, G & H are broadly similar properties in Scotland & in England, the relevant multipliers are as follows

Band E - England 11/9, Scotland 131/100 = England £1857, Scotland £1537 Difference £320

Band F - England 13/9, Scotland  163/100 = England £2194, Scotland £1912 Difference £282 

Band G - England 15/9, Scotland, 49/25 = England £2532, Scotland £2299 Difference £233 

Band H - England 18/9, Scotland 49/20 = England £3038, Scotland £2874 Difference £164

In each and every case, the equivalent English taxpayer pays more council tax to stay in a similar property between bands D to H.  The difference ranges from £164 to £346, with the highest earners (who own the most expensive houses) having the smallest additional payments in England.

My general point remains valid, however - every above average Scottish Council taxpayer will pay less  Council Tax than he would if he stayed in a similar house in England.

3&4 . I didn't use averages. I provided no figures at all. My point is that the tax levied is identical whether you are an above average Scottish taxpayer or an above average rUK taxpayer. Unless you can show that Scottish taxpayers pay more vehicle or air taxes, your point is invalid. 

4. I chose not to include water & sewerage because (as we both know) they are charged in different ways in different parts of the UK. For instance, if you have a metered supply of water (as is the case in many parts of England), your payment is dependent upon use rather than an average amount. Similarly, in response to this point, can I suggest that you have failed to take account of the different methods of charging for prescriptions in Scotland & England? There are no circumstances where an English based taxpayer pays less for prescriptions than a Scottish based taxpayer, and the 'season ticket' costs £104 in England. That's exactly £104 more than it costs in Scotland

(4). See my point 2 in this reply. The scottish rate may be higher i.e. 131% of the band D rate for a band E property as compared to 122% in England, but this is more than made up for by the differences in the band D rate.

5. See response to point 1

6. At least I've provided some context for my beliefs. May I remind you that your original assertion was that people earning above the average wage in Scotland paid more tax than those in other parts of the UK? I'm pretty sure that these are assumptions on your part. Why not provide some figures to back up your claims?

[strichener]

14 hours ago, lichtgilphead said:

Does your numbering system above bear any relationship to my numbered points above, or are you adopting a scattergun approach in an attempt to confuse the matter further? For the avoidance of doubt, I'm referring below to your 6 numbered points above- including both point 4's

Yes it is directly relational, including mirroring the fact that it was your original post that contained two number 4s!

14 hours ago, lichtgilphead said:

1.  You admit that you have no idea about the split between income categories. Accordingly, you have failed to prove your original contention that Scots taxpayers on above average income pay more alcohol, VAT & tobacco taxes than rUK equivalents

1.  I haven't failed as what you describe as my original contention is only in your head.  I have only ever stated that Scotland on average pays more than down south, not that above average earners individually or collectively pay more. 

It would appear that I am to allow you to make all the assumptions you wish and yet I cannot make any.  Let's look at VAT as an example - Scotland pays one of the highest pkWh rate for electricity within the UK and due to location and condition of housing stock has the highest average cost.  Also added to the electric bills is 8% environmental and social obligation charges insisted on by the government, a tax in all but name.  Assuming that above average earners spend more on non-essentials than lower paid workers, it would follow that the larger VAT bill would be higher for above average earners.  I cannot find data to dispel this perfectly reasonable assumption.  Do you have a data source that contradicts this?

Quote

2. Assuming that bands E, F, G & H are broadly similar properties in Scotland & in England, the relevant multipliers are as follows

Band E - England 11/9, Scotland 131/100 = England £1857, Scotland £1537 Difference £320

Band F - England 13/9, Scotland  163/100 = England £2194, Scotland £1912 Difference £282 

Band G - England 15/9, Scotland, 49/25 = England £2532, Scotland £2299 Difference £233 

Band H - England 18/9, Scotland 49/20 = England £3038, Scotland £2874 Difference £164

In each and every case, the equivalent English taxpayer pays more council tax to stay in a similar property between bands D to H.  The difference ranges from £164 to £346, with the highest earners (who own the most expensive houses) having the smallest additional payments in England.

My general point remains valid, however - every above average Scottish Council taxpayer will pay less  Council Tax than he would if he stayed in a similar house in England.

2. Why would you make this assumption?  The statistics on this show that you likely to own a property that falls into a higher rate in Scotland than England.  The relative percentages are:

band E - Scotland 13.3%, England 9.5%
band F - Scotland 7.6%, England 5%
Band G - Scotland 4.8%, England 3.5%
Band H - Scotland 4.8%, England 0.6%

Totals - Scotland  30.5%, England 18.6%

This completely undermines the entire basis of your assumption.  Coupled with the larger ration to Band D properties, the council tax system in Scotland disproportionately penalises those in above band D properties.

Also, why ignore the number of adults in the household- In 2014 30% of English households were single occupier whilst the equivalent in Scotland was 37%.  Your assumptions also fail to take into account the distribution of property.  If a person were to live in a Band-H Edinburgh and move to the same banded property in London, they would pay significantly less in London (Edinburgh - £3038.47 v £2996 for the highest or £1421 for the lowest) or, as I know you like averages, the average in London is £2422).  The total Council tax requirement in England was

Quote

3&4 . I didn't use averages. I provided no figures at all. My point is that the tax levied is identical whether you are an above average Scottish taxpayer or an above average rUK taxpayer. Unless you can show that Scottish taxpayers pay more vehicle or air taxes, your point is invalid. 

3&4 - No, the point is that if you want to look at each and every person then you would need to know the specifics travel patterns for each person.

Quote

 

4. I chose not to include water & sewerage because (as we both know) they are charged in different ways in different parts of the UK. For instance, if you have a metered supply of water (as is the case in many parts of England), your payment is dependent upon use rather than an average amount. Similarly, in response to this point, can I suggest that you have failed to take account of the different methods of charging for prescriptions in Scotland & England? There are no circumstances where an English based taxpayer pays less for prescriptions than a Scottish based taxpayer, and the 'season ticket' costs £104 in England. That's exactly £104 more than it costs in Scotland

 

I know why you excluded this as it skews the figures against your case.  However, as I have previously stated, the council tax charges down south includes a charge for fire and police that is not in the Scottish charge and yet you are quite happy to ignore this when drawing comparisons.  To see this in context, we can look at a random council (Manchester prefixed m below) that I obtained the figures for and compare it against Edinburgh (prefixed e below):

Difference between Band D Property (e:£1240.19 m:£1566.79) = £326.60
Less: Manchester Police contribution (£174-30) & Fire Service (67.95) = 84.35 difference with Edinburgh

If you look at above average properties this the lead to the difference being:

Band E - e: £1629.47 m: £1914.96 - 213.03 - 83.05 = £1618.88 (Edinburgh more expensive by £10.60)
Band F - e: £2263.14 m: £2263.14 - 251.77 - 98.15 = £1913.22 (Edinburgh more expensive by £102.08)
Band G - e: £2428.71 m: £2611.31 - 290.50 - 113.25 = £2207.56 (Edinburgh more expensive by £221.15)
Band H - e: £3038.47 m: £3113.58 - 348.60 - 135.90 = £2629.08 (Edinburgh more expensive by £409.39)

Your comparison between water and prescription charges is quite strange.  Unless you have evidence that health charges are either 1) directly correlated to income or 2) variable based on house prices then there really is no comparison between water & sewage and prescriptions.  Whilst the former falls into the definition of taxes, the latter clearly doesn't.  Nice attempt though to expand the definition of tax.

Just so we can put this council tax difference to bed, the average council tax charge per dwelling in England was £1258 and in Scotland it was £1106.  England's includes a charge for policing and fire, Scotland's doesn't.

[strichener]

16 hours ago, Peppino Impastato said:

You haven't provided any facts champ, you made baseless assertions with no supporting figures.  Let's see your working.

I don't know why I bother humouring you but your above post is just bollocks.

18 hours ago, strichener said:

1. Yes it is as has already been pointed out on previous posts.  We don't have to compare the taxes that are levied at different amounts, you also need to know individual consumption and the level of taxation levied on that consumption.  However we do know that in general Scots pay more in VAT, alcohol and tobacco taxes than the remainder of the UK and I not sure if there are statistics on how this is split between income categories.

2. Let's make the not unrealistic assumption that above average earners live in above average properties to a greater degree than below average earners.  With this entirely reasonable assumption the Band D property band is irrelevant and the greater multipliers on above average properties will adversely affect those with above average income.  The link between which houses above average earners are more likely to own is fare more representative than using Band D averages.  Your point may have been valid when the UK had single ratios for bands but that is no longer the case.

3 & 4. You asked me to confirm that every above average earner would pay more in tax.  You then revert to using averages to attempt to make your case.

4. Once more you are either being deliberately dishonest or naive.  You have already mentioned the lower average council tax band which in terms of verifiable expense is one of the easier taxes to measure.  However comparison between what this covers in England compared to Scotland a factor in any differences in levy.  If I were to be as liberal with interpretation  then I would say that in Scotland we should include Sewage and Water charges as these are, for the majority of households, another tax on your property value.  Would that be comparing like for like?  No.  But then you don't appear to believe that it is important to do so.

(4). As with 2 above, it is more likely that above average earners will buy above average properties and comparatives between the charges on the above average properties show that Scotland is more expensive.  The reason that I didn't make mention of the higher house prices in England was that the banding for the charge already reflect this.

5. Once again reverting to the assumption that the average between the UK is the same when there are figures that show that Scotland already contributes more for these taxes, even before minimum pricing adds to this.

6. You make assumptions for which you have no data and use a figure (£346) which by definition is based on the average of all households and not just those with above average incomes.

 

Each bolded part is a fact.  FACT.

[welshbairn]

Incidentally flights from Inverness Airport, and other Highland and Islands airports, are tax free, another variable to throw in the mix

[strichener]

On 5/21/2018 at 16:21, welshbairn said:

Incidentally flights from Inverness Airport, and other Highland and Islands airports, are tax free, another variable to throw in the mix

Yes and very good it is to if you are wanting long haul in business class, saves a fortune.  You just have to watch on the way back to make sure that your internal flight is close enough to the long-haul to avoid APD.

It would appear at first sight that this was an covert attempt at more highland clearings given that you still have to pay APD to return to these airports.

[welshbairn]

4 minutes ago, strichener said:

Yes and very good it is to if you are wanting long haul in business class, saves a fortune.  You just have to watch on the way back to make sure that your internal flight is close enough to the long-haul to avoid APD.

It would appear at first sight that this was an covert attempt at more highland clearings given that you still have to pay APD to return to these airports.

Helps using Schiphol as a hub too. 

[strichener]

1 minute ago, welshbairn said:

Helps using Schiphol as a hub too. 

Keeping it on topic (I know, it's a bit late) but Dublin   also works well.

Edited May 22, 2018 by strichener

[welshbairn]

3 minutes ago, strichener said:

Keeping it on topic (I know, it's a bit late) but Dublin   also works well.

Aye, Dublin's great. A proper beer garden airside.

[banana]

What we need is a fixed tax rate for everyone so the stupid citizenry can be kept safe by the Loving Progressive Politburo and its network of social commissars.

#equalityat100%

[NotThePars]

oaksoft was a huge fan of a fixed tax rate.

[AUFC90]

oaksoft was a huge fan of a fixed tax rate.

Are you suggesting they are one and the same ? Banana isn't bitter enough, he ticks the thick box pretty well but is nowhere near as bitter Oaksoft.