If Scotland were...

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Scotland trying to get to a  tournament finals is a bit like Falkirk trying to get into the top flight

We're not one of the teams that "should always  expect" to be there.

But failing 10 times in a row is getting fucking ridiculous

 

 

[forameus]

I'd say we should be in a state of confidence about getting to a Euros the way they're structured now, but should see the World Cup as a stretch.  Granted, the last would be easier to take if we actually achieved the former.

[forameus]

1 hour ago, Peppino Impastato said:

What do you care your big team usually qualifies.  The Scotland team isn't yours.  It doesn't represent you and your ilk.

How embarrassing is it to be you?  Like, if you had to quantify it, is it calling a teacher mum?  Shitting yourself in public?  Pretending you're a footballer on a forum?

[54_and_counting]

22 hours ago, DanMc99 said:

it's typical our two most talented players are left backs, it'd be nice to have a guy with the ability of robertson or tierney that was a midfielder or striker

Thing is scotland would still have fans clamouring for the likes of brown and co to start before them because of experience, 

[54_and_counting]

10 hours ago, Raidernation said:

The SFA and the ugly sisters have slowly strangled the game to death since the late 80’s but as long as “they’re” happy everything is ok

In what way have the old firm strangled the game since the 80's, 

[Dunning1874]

1 minute ago, 54_and_counting said:

Thing is scotland would still have fans clamouring for the likes of brown and co to start before them because of experience, 

Aye, just look at all the Scotland fans clamouring for Steven Whittaker and Charlie Mulgrew to be picked ahead of the obviously superior Robertson and Tierney because they're more experienced.

No one does this.

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, Lex said:

If it’s not that hard how come we never do it?
Can’t we just qualify and take it from there? Things can’t get much worse, can they?

 

 

1) Because we're massively underachieving, and always have, even when we were qualifying for stuff. Scotland should have had at least one spell in its history like Austria, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Croatia, Sweden and Denmark, all of whom have at least had a period of dominance and have made the semis of World Cups at least. Why have we never managed to even get out of our group? Why have countries like Turkey been to two major semi-finals in the past 16 years and we've been at home? 

30 years ago this thread would have been 'if Scotland were in the quarter finals...' Seriously, if we'd been in the bottom half of that draw with any of our squads from the 70s or 80s, we could have realistically hoped for a place in the final.

2) Things can always get worse. When I was young Aberdeen and Dundee United were in the top 4 clubs in Europe. Now Scottish teams are playing their first matches of the season before the last one has even finished and losing to part-timers who draw smaller crowds than Pollok. Skonto Riga was the beginning of the end.

1 hour ago, forameus said:

The pathetic self-hatred some people have is just astounding at times.  Like they're just desperate for us to really scrape the bottom just so they can be raging about it.  Capped by suggesting that qualifying for the Euros would be a bad thing.  Jesus Christ.

It's self-hatred to note the cold hard fact that we've failed in the last 10 qualifying campaigns in a row, and want to do something about it, is it? You've got it absolutely the wrong way round. Self-hatred is settling for being less than also-rans and accepting being shite. A country with the number of players we have, the resources we have, the passion for football we have, should be aiming a damn sight higher than scraping into a 24-team European Championship and going along for the piss-up. It would be fun but it wouldn't make anything better.

1 hour ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

Scotland trying to get to a  tournament finals is a bit like Falkirk trying to get into the top flight

We're not one of the teams that "should always  expect" to be there.

But failing 10 times in a row is getting fucking ridiculous

Scotland should always expect to be in a 24-team European Championship. We've got the same population and climate as Denmark, we have more players, more young players, more interest in the game and more money in the game. Why are we permanently so far behind them? They've won the Euros (slightly freaky, I know), but they've also made the semis on two other occasions and the quarters once. They've been to 8 Euros, playing 27 games - we've been to two, playing 6 games. I know they didn't make Euro 16 but at leats they made the play-offs, and then they qualified for Russia. They've made a World Cup quarter final and got out of their group on three other occasions. They've just gone out of the World Cup with a win and three draws. And they were fkn amateur until the 1970s!

[forameus]

7 minutes ago, GordonS said:

It's self-hatred to note the cold hard fact that we've failed in the last 10 qualifying campaigns in a row, and want to do something about it, is it? You've got it absolutely the wrong way round. Self-hatred is settling for being less than also-rans and accepting being shite. A country with the number of players we have, the resources we have, the passion for football we have, should be aiming a damn sight higher than scraping into a 24-team European Championship and going along for the piss-up. It would be fun but it wouldn't make anything better.

Yeah, because I'm accepting being shite by consistently saying that we've been 2 points away from the playoffs twice now, and that it won't take a huge leap for us to qualify for a tournament.  

You do realise it isn't a binary option, right?  Qualifying for Euro 2020 isn't going to mean that literally nothing is done for the future.  But saying we shouldn't care about getting to the Euros because it's an easy tournament to get to (which was a particularly odd thing to say) on the hope that somehow the SFA - who couldn't even organise a cup draw correctly - are going to preside over some big change in our fortunes is putting incredible trust in the unknown.  

[GordonS]

2 minutes ago, forameus said:

Yeah, because I'm accepting being shite by consistently saying that we've been 2 points away from the playoffs twice now, and that it won't take a huge leap for us to qualify for a tournament.  

You do realise it isn't a binary option, right?  Qualifying for Euro 2020 isn't going to mean that literally nothing is done for the future.  But saying we shouldn't care about getting to the Euros because it's an easy tournament to get to (which was a particularly odd thing to say) on the hope that somehow the SFA - who couldn't even organise a cup draw correctly - are going to preside over some big change in our fortunes is putting incredible trust in the unknown.  

We were just shy of getting into a play-off that we wouldn't have won anyway? That doesn't really match the ambition we should have.

Almost half the countries in Europe get into the Euro finals. Given that half the countries in Europe are tiny, qualification isn't the most difficult thing in the world. We came behind Ireland, a country that's smaller than us, has no serious domestic football, and where football is only the fourth-biggest sport. 

FWIW, it's not the SFA that's screwing up youth football - well, they're not the worst bit. Ever since the days of Andy Roxburgh they've been pushing small-sided games, non-competitive matches, all the rest of it. The problem is the football in schools, Boy's Brigade, boys' clubs all over the country, and the dads on the touchline. The two primary schools near my house have full-size pitches and full-size goals. Fkn full-size goals for under 12s. They have 11-a-side teams that play in league and cup competitions. They tweet with pride when these teams win things, and they stick it in their newsletters. Given the choice between aping what they see on telly and winning medals, or playing three-a-side with a size 3 ball and no structured matches, wee boys will always pick the former - and so will their dads. They need the choice taken away from them.

The SFA aren't responsible for that and they find it hard to regulate it, because people just opt out. Where I would criticise them is not cracking the whip and then holding their nerve. 

[forameus]

Just now, GordonS said:

We were just shy of getting into a play-off that we wouldn't have won anyway?

And there we go, right back to the "och, we're shite, le's dae somehin'"

And you say others have no ambition...

[HibeeJibee]

21 hours ago, Jamaldo said:

Wonder what's happening in Norway. They're 18 years without a major tournament (so almost as bad as us) and had an awful qualification campaign for the World Cup. Think they've only made one play-off in that time as well.

I think the difference is the weight of history... We in Scotland have the notion that we used to be among "the best in the world" (and before the war we certainly were) - and that we "qualified all the time" (which is a bit of a myth: we were utterly hopeless at qualifying in 1960s and have only ever made 2 Euros). They in Norway simply had some golden years in the mid to late 1990s and made 3 tournaments out of 4. I've always felt we were more like Austria or Hungary, looking back on glories past - although of course both ended their barren years by qualifying for Euro 2016.
 

4 hours ago, DA Baracus said:

Football in Scotland isn't dying. Far from it.

What a load of utter pish. Genuinely moronic to claim that it is.

Indeed as there's more money in the game than ever before and crowds remain strong historically and in international terms. However being a nation of football watchers and spenders is not the same as being a nation of football participants or high-achievers.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

I think we are more than capable of getting a team to qualify for major championships - other countries with similar level players manage it.

 

It seems to me that they manage to get more out of their players as a whole than we do - the sum of their parts is more than the individuals whereas the sum of our parts seems to be less than the individuals.

 

I think it comes down to players playing and getting used to a system that no matter who plays they know that system.

 

 

[HibeeJibee]

Even if that were the case... we have until recently played much less often than most nations; plus when we undertook a recent friendly double-header hardly any of the first-rank squad could be bothered to go. Logically, it's harder to get used to a system when you don't practice it as much, and harder to make the sum greater than the parts when the parts don't turn-up.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Even if that were the case... we have until recently played much less often than most nations; plus when we undertook a recent friendly double-header hardly any of the first-rank squad could be bothered to go. Logically, it's harder to get used to a system when you don't practice it as much, and harder to make the sum greater than the parts when the parts don't turn-up.

Don't disagree with this - however will there not be less meaningless friendly matches with the Nations League?

[forameus]

16 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

17 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

Even if that were the case... we have until recently played much less often than most nations; plus when we undertook a recent friendly double-header hardly any of the first-rank squad could be bothered to go. Logically, it's harder to get used to a system when you don't practice it as much, and harder to make the sum greater than the parts when the parts don't turn-up.

Don't disagree with this - however will there not be less meaningless friendly matches with the Nations League?

Indeed there will.  HJ is 100% right in what he says, but hopefully that changes.  We will still have 2 friendly dates within the Nations League, but I think they fall in the "other" slot against a competitive game, so hopefully we don't see the usual drop-outs.

My worry is that the importance of the Nations League isn't impressed on the players, fans and media as strongly as it should be, and we still get players (or more accurately, their clubs) making decisions around pulling out.

[lanky_ffc]

23 hours ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

Scotland trying to get to a  tournament finals is a bit like Falkirk trying to get into the top flight

We're not one of the teams that "should always  expect" to be there.

But failing 10 times in a row is getting fucking ridiculous

Thanks for reminding me both teams I support are shitebags

[Brummie Clyde]

We will qualify again eventually, particularly when it expands to about 40 teams.

Think we’re better than Saudi Arabia and Panama. 

[Savage Henry]

20 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

21 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

Even if that were the case... we have until recently played much less often than most nations; plus when we undertook a recent friendly double-header hardly any of the first-rank squad could be bothered to go. Logically, it's harder to get used to a system when you don't practice it as much, and harder to make the sum greater than the parts when the parts don't turn-up.

Don't disagree with this - however will there not be less meaningless friendly matches with the Nations League?

With Alex McLeish in charge those meaningless friendlies will be replaced by meaningless competitive games.

[Sergeant Wilson]

On 04/07/2018 at 11:52, 54_and_counting said:

In what way have the old firm strangled the game since the 80's, 

Maintenance of the 10-2 voting system has stifled change that doesn't suit them. This impacts on division sizes, money distribution. They've both used their clout to bully a weak governing body in different ways, manipulation referee and disciplinary issues etc.

They are behind proposals re youth/reserve football which will detract from other clubs ability to compete for players to sign and on the pitch in games.

Both had undue had influence on the decision to admit Rangers at all.

[HibeeJibee]

4 hours ago, Brummie Clyde said:

We will qualify again eventually, particularly when it expands to about 40 teams.

Think we’re better than Saudi Arabia and Panama. 

48.

Europe = only 3 more slots.