What is the point of Labour ?

[Miguel Sanchez]

5 hours ago, MixuFixit said:

Who in Scotland does seem up to it in your view?

tOo wEe tOo pOoR ToO StUpId

[NotThePars]

5 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

I dunno. Guess about 20% of SNP voters would prefer the SNP to further to the left on a lot of things than it is?

The idea of making a new party and defeating whatever the majority of SNP folk turn into post independence is (probably?) a tall order but there's so much that we don't know that could lead to a group of that size having a lot of influence. Like I'm sure the Ewing wing of the party would love to regress to FPTP in an independent Scotland but I don't think the Scottish public would accept this. Who knows how a new constitution would be drafted? I can only optimistically guess that they'd want to go down the inclusive route that led to the parliament. Maybe we'd have lots of referenda in a short time to thrash out bits of this. I don't think even a majority of the SNP think that all of that should be up to the SNP alone in that situation. That's a long winded way of saying all these things conspire to mean the probability society will be improved somewhat in Scotland by the time I'm an old man is higher than in the UK, in my opinion.

It's funny cause I completely disagree with your optimistic guess while agreeing with your final statement. The UK is such a shambles, I don't know how anyone can still be arsed to make the case for it.

[NotThePars]

Just now, MixuFixit said:

Why do you think so? The 90s were a long time ago now but I remember it being a, generally speaking, positive process setting up the parliament. Those guys in the vigil van on Regent Road were even cheery.

 

I think everyone in the 90s was on some potent cocktail of quaaludes and cocaine I can't account for the widespread delusion that Bill Clinton and Tony Blair were sex symbols. That, and the insane(ly class) action movies.

[Theroadlesstravelled]

Marxist scumbag Pol Pot dying was a highlight of the 90s.

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by Theroadlesstravelled

[Fullerene]

18 hours ago, welshbairn said:

On day one? I see Slovakia shared the Czechoslovakian currency for a short period before fixing their own to a basket of foreign currencies. 

'43-2-1635.pdf 1.79 MB · 1 download

Ecuador and El Salvador both use the US dollar instead of their own currency.

[Fullerene]

16 hours ago, Detournement said:

If he had won the 2017 election it would have been. He wasn't that far away and that's with Labour HQ deliberately trying to lose.

Do you seriously believe this paranoid crap?  That Corbyn would have sailed to victory if only everyone got behind him?  The Tories won 98 more seats than Labour.

How was Labour ever going to win if it was so full of conspirators, traitors,  saboteurs and non-believers?  All this constant talk about enemies in our midst was a real turnoff for voters.  What does it say about his leadership skills if so many are against him.

The EU referendum was a disaster for Corbyn because he came across as two faced.  Half heartedly campaigning for Remain when he had never been keen on the EU.  

The position in 2019 was one of absolute muddle.  An obvious compromise that pleased nobody.

The problem was not that he was hard left or extremist or his manifesto was all that bad.  It was more that he seemed a weak leader who would have been a disastrous Prime Minister - even compared to May or Johnson.

[welshbairn]

2 hours ago, Theroadlesstravelled said:

Marxist scumbag Pol Pot dying was a highlight of the 90s.

 

Pol Pot wasn't a Marxist, he was the ultimate xenophobic Nationalist. He didn't think wealth should be shared out, he thought people should have nothing and work as slaves to the state, and all ethnic minorities slaughtered. He achieved most of that.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Pol Pot wasn't a just Marxist, he was the ultimate xenophobic Nationalist. He didn't think wealth should be shared out, he thought people should have nothing and work as slaves to the state, and all ethnic minorities slaughtered. He achieved most of that.

FTFY

[welshbairn]

6 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

 

FTFY

 

From the man himself.

Quote

"We chose communism because we wanted to restore our nation. We helped the Vietnamese, who were communist. But now the communists are fighting us. So we have to turn to the West and follow their way."

 

[Dunning1874]

Back on topic, I see the brave new opposition's shadow housing minister is arguing that rent cancellation would actually be regressive because it would hurt landlords and some undeserving plebs might benefit from it: https://labourlist.org/2020/05/cancel-the-rent-policy-would-be-un-labour-says-debbonaire/?amp&__twitter_impression=true

Quote

Because, for instance, there are people who are still in work, still able to pay their rent. And if you just cancelled rent, they would also benefit and they don’t need to.

Good to know that Labour now believe universalism is regressive. I assume Debbonaire will be advocating the introduction of means testing to the NHS shortly.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Dunning1874

[pandarilla]

Do you seriously believe this paranoid crap?  That Corbyn would have sailed to victory if only everyone got behind him?  The Tories won 98 more seats than Labour.
How was Labour ever going to win if it was so full of conspirators, traitors,  saboteurs and non-believers?  All this constant talk about enemies in our midst was a real turnoff for voters.  What does it say about his leadership skills if so many are against him.
The EU referendum was a disaster for Corbyn because he came across as two faced.  Half heartedly campaigning for Remain when he had never been keen on the EU.  
The position in 2019 was one of absolute muddle.  An obvious compromise that pleased nobody.
The problem was not that he was hard left or extremist or his manifesto was all that bad.  It was more that he seemed a weak leader who would have been a disastrous Prime Minister - even compared to May or Johnson.

Brexit killed corbyn, more than critics in his own party I'd say.

As you said, he never liked the eu, but he accepted that remaining in it was the best option? What the f**k could he do? I saw him tackle a sky news one on one with the public and he was excellent. But this country demands big bold public strategies, and you're right, when it came to the that he couldn't do anything else. In the 17 election he showed he could campaign well, but how do you do that with a message that's halfway this and halfway that.

Brexit killed corbyn. No option would've worked. It was a perfect storm for him, and came together prefecture for Boris - who also had no great principle on the eu, and was as flimsy as corbyn - but chose to go full hell - for - leather bollox.

Corbyn has too much decency to do what Boris did, and that's the politics we seem to want in this country. Sadly.

[Wee Willie]

2 hours ago, Fullerene said:

Ecuador and El Salvador both use the US dollar instead of their own currency.

But...but...but that shouldnae be allowed (according to some on here).

13 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

Corbyn has too much decency to do what Boris did, and that's the politics we seem to want in this country. Sadly.

Why do you say that?

This is a Scottish forum based in Scotland.

Are you saying that we in Scotland wanted Boris and no Corbyn?

Why do you no say that the electors in Scotland punted both of them.

[welshbairn]

4 hours ago, Dunning1874 said:

Back on topic, I see the brave new opposition's shadow housing minister is arguing that rent cancellation would actually be regressive because it would hurt landlords and some undeserving plebs might benefit from it: https://labourlist.org/2020/05/cancel-the-rent-policy-would-be-un-labour-says-debbonaire/?amp&__twitter_impression=true

Good to know that Labour now believe universalism is regressive. I assume Debbonaire will be advocating the introduction of means testing to the NHS shortly.

Do you think abolishing all rent is practical?

[Dunning1874]

30 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Do you think abolishing all rent is practical?

I think the cancellation of all private rent as long as economic restrictions which disproprotionately impact those on low-income who are likely to be renters are in place as a result of Covid-19 is entirely reasonable and practical as a short term measure, yes.

In the long term I think landlordism should be illegal, with a debate to be had about whether this should be enforced through compulsory purchasing and redistribution of buy to let properties or just seizing them and packing all the landlords off to gulag, but I appreciate that Labour won't be advocating this position.

[welshbairn]

I'm moving as soon as it goes through.

[welshbairn]

4 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

Stuff like that always makes me thing it's such a diminishing return being very wealthy. Like you earn 10 million quid a year and what, you get a concierge, a fancy lamp? Is that all there is?

The wee bird in the chat box is probably thrown in with the flat.

[Detournement]

9 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

Stuff like that always makes me thing it's such a diminishing return being very wealthy. Like you earn 10 million quid a year and what, you get a concierge, a fancy lamp? Is that all there is?

I'd imagine never having to really worry about anything substantial is the big perk. 

[welshbairn]

Apparently suicide rates are highest amongst the very rich and very poor, not so much in between. Not having to worry about bills obviously helps, but they'll find other stuff, like feeling you've failed in life because a rival has just bought a bigger yacht and your family hates you.

Quote

Economic status has not been found to be a predictor in the simple way that social scientists once thought. Early suicide researchers theorized that poverty was a significant risk factor for suicide. The theory was that being poor could make one feel depressed, desperate or ashamed at times. This isn’t entirely wrong, but research has shown that both the lowest-low and the highest-high incomes are more strongly associated with rates of suicide than other income levels. In other words, it’s the extremes of either poverty or wealth that are associated with higher suicide rates. However, 75% of global suicides occur in low- and middle-income countries, so suicide is not a problem that occurs only in industrialized, wealthy nations as had often be previously suggested in the past.

https://www.gulfbend.org/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=13737&cn=9

Edited May 15, 2020 by welshbairn

[welshbairn]

Have to say that being useless with money and budgeting I've spent most of my energies focused on blocking worries about bills and storing them unopened in a bin bag until the shit hits the fan, followed by a few months of bliss after sorting everything out. 

[O'Kelly Isley III]

To me the only way to do it is to issue a Scottish currency and convert the GBP debt into Scottish money on day one.
But that involves standing up to a lot of wealthy and powerful factions and communicating complex ideas to the electorate neither of which the SNP have shown any aptitude or enthusiasm for. 

Respect for your response, the thrust of which I agree with. As regards the role of the SNP, as others have already pointed out, in the event of independence the Scottish political kaleidoscope would be realigned and there's even possibility that the SNP would fly off into the sunset like the little plane that takes a glider airborne. Before that happens though, it's my opinion that a much broader consensus than the SNP alone agitating for independence would stand a better chance of achieving it. Are you listening Labour voters ?