What is the point of Labour ?

[KirkieRR]

21 hours ago, Jedi2 said:

Anyone questioning SNP policy, leadership or record in govt

Oh, dear, that old fib again.

[Dunning1874]

Anyone voting for these austerity addicted charlatans in the belief they're going to roll back any Tory policies once they get in and aren't actually to the right of George Osborne:

[lichtgilphead]

On 06/02/2024 at 22:12, carpetmonster said:

Plenty of folks do that. Yet you’re the only one (two, if you count your first account) who posts literally nothing else. Nowhere else in the forum. I was on Twitter yesterday and there was lots of Scottish accounts asking if folks had noticed Labour activists appearing en masse into their timelines. I hadn’t (probably as Twitter can’t location ping me to Scotland) but it did make me think of you. 

On 06/02/2024 at 23:28, Jedi2 said:

Might want to check out my posts in the actual football forums then.

Or indeed my criticisms, questioning of Tory (and yes, even Labour) policy when it arises.

Then there is the TV and film forum...

Seeing as @Jedi2 has taken a night off from lying about the SNP, I took up his invitation to check out his posts in the "actual football forums" & the TV/film forum.

According to https://forum.pieandbovril.com/profile/84168-jedi2/content/, since he returned, he has made 142 posts. 

138 of these posts were in the Politics forum

4 in Scottish Premiership General Chatter 

None at all in the TV & Film forum.

I don't think I need to comment further.

[Jedi2]

4 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

Seeing as @Jedi2 has taken a night off from lying about the SNP, I took up his invitation to check out his posts in the "actual football forums" & the TV/film forum.

According to https://forum.pieandbovril.com/profile/84168-jedi2/content/, since he returned, he has made 142 posts. 

138 of these posts were in the Politics forum

4 in Scottish Premiership General Chatter 

None at all in the TV & Film forum.

I don't think I need to comment further.

You really are quite the troll, but glad to see your obsessed time is spent trawling my posts.

Utterly pathetic 

Edited February 8 by Jedi2

[lichtgilphead]

1 minute ago, Jedi2 said:

You really are quite the troll, but glad to see your obsessed time is spent trawling my posts.

And there's post number 143.

Waves to @Jedi2 

[Highlandmagar]

6 hours ago, Jedi2 said:

You really are quite the troll, but glad to see your obsessed time is spent trawling my posts.

Utterly pathetic 

Maybe if you didn't lie so badly  you wouldn't be outed.

[Highlandmagar]

7 hours ago, Dunning1874 said:

Anyone voting for these austerity addicted charlatans in the belief they're going to roll back any Tory policies once they get in and aren't actually to the right of George Osborne:

So. What next. Red rose to become a pastel shade of blue?

[Fullerene]

6 hours ago, Jedi2 said:

You really are quite the troll, but glad to see your obsessed time is spent trawling my posts.

Utterly pathetic 

FYI If I click on the J icon that you use as your moniker, it takes me to your profile where I see you joined on the 9th January last year, you live in Edinburgh, support Kilmarnock and have made 144 posts to date and then lists them out.

It only took minutes to identify all of them.

HTH

[Jedi2]

1 hour ago, Highlandmagar said:

Maybe if you didn't lie so badly  you wouldn't be outed.

Point one one 'lie'

[Freedom Farter]

The Scotsman (Tory outlet) published an editorial a few days ago against free tuition in Scotland.

Fraser Nelson railed against free tuition on Question Time last week.

There was a comment on here against free tuition a few weeks back, with Lucy Hunter Blackburn cited. She has a PhD in education funding so she's certainly a qualified source. It's worth recognising her connections, though. Here's her output for Nelson's Spectator magazine:

 

Then here is her work being cited to oppose Corbyn's policy to abolish tuition fees in 2017: https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/this-is-why-not-everyone-in-scotland-thinks-free-uni

What I see happening here is a sustained campaign against free tuition in Scotland. It's being led by the usual right wing element and being joined by liberals associated with the Starmer movement. Both claim their opposition to free tuition fees is actually due to them caring about the poorest in society. They'll cite research by an academic like Hunter Blackburn. This is despite the standard socialist position always having been for the universal availability of benefits and against means-testing. It's also despite right wingers not giving a toss about society's poorest for the other 364 days in the year. Suddenly, when it's a chance to trick people into opposing a progressive policy, they claim to care.

Free tuition in Scotland is being campaigned against in this way because the policy is a threat. For as long as it exists in Scotland, it provides the threat of a good example. Corbyn in 2017 could point to it in Scotland when he was proposing it for England and Wales. This also goes for free prescriptions in Scotland which also provides the threat of a good example to England and Wales, and therefore must be extinguished. Going after free tuition first is the easier of the two because you can use an "it only benefits young people" notion to appeal to bitter oldies.

This right wing agenda is really about objectively harming the material conditions of the working class. They can't just say that, though, so instead they're trying to peddle it through the medium of the various identity debates. It was the SNP government who introduced these universal benefits in Scotland therefore right wingers seek to convince people these are SNP ideas (when in reality they're standard socialist positions). Straight away, that allows you to tell British identity folk, anti-trans folk (see that screenshot above) and whoever else that these policies must be reversed as they're just "SNP ploys". There's useful idiots on the SNP side, too. A Fergus Ewing constantly running down the Greens when Patrick Harvie was the sole voice defending free tuition fees on that Question Time debate last week. While Ewing's rage with the Greens might be over other policies, there's a danger there of the baby being thrown out with the bathwater.

Edited February 8 by Freedom Farter

[Sherrif John Bunnell]

32 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

The Scotsman (Tory outlet) published an editorial a few days ago against free tuition fees in Scotland.

Fraser Nelson railed against free tuition fees on Question Time last week.

There was a comment on here against free tuition fees a few weeks back, with Lucy Hunter Blackburn cited. She has a PhD in education funding so she's certainly a qualified source. It's worth recognising her connections, though. Here's her output for Nelson's Spectator magazine:

 

Then here is her work being cited to oppose Corbyn's policy to abolish tuition fees in 2017: https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/this-is-why-not-everyone-in-scotland-thinks-free-uni

What I see happening here is a sustained campaign against free tuition fees in Scotland. It's being led by the usual right wing element and being joined by liberals associated with the Starmer movement. Both claim their opposition to free tuition fees is actually due to them caring about the poorest in society. They'll cite research by an academic like Hunter Blackburn. This is despite the standard socialist position always having been for the universal availability of benefits and against means-testing. It's also despite right wingers not giving a toss about society's poorest for the other 364 days in the year. Suddenly, when it's a chance to trick people into opposing a progressive policy, they claim to care.

Free tuition fees in Scotland are being campaigned against in this way because the policy is a threat. For as long as it exists in Scotland, it provides the threat of a good example. Corbyn in 2017 could point to it in Scotland when he was proposing it for England and Wales. This also goes for free prescription charges in Scotland which also provides the threat of a good example to England and Wales, and therefore must be extinguished. Going after free tuition fees first is the easier of the two because you can use an "it only benefits young people" notion to appeal to bitter oldies.

This right wing agenda is really about objectively harming the material conditions of the working class. They can't just say that, though, so instead they're trying to peddle it through the medium of the various identity debates. It was the SNP government who introduced these universal benefits in Scotland therefore right wingers seek to convince people these are SNP ideas (when in reality they're standard socialist positions). Straight away, that allows you to tell British identity folk, anti-trans folk (see that screenshot above) and whoever else that these policies must be reversed as they're just "SNP ploys". There's useful idiots on the SNP side, too. A Fergus Ewing constantly running down the Greens when Patrick Harvie was the sole voice defending free tuition fees on that Question Time debate last week. While Ewing's rage with the Greens might be over other policies, there's a danger there of the baby being thrown out with the bathwater.

Nelson also linked the murder of the bus driver in Elgin the other day to free bus travel for under 22's.

[Left Back]

47 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

The Scotsman (Tory outlet) published an editorial a few days ago against free tuition fees in Scotland.

Fraser Nelson railed against free tuition fees on Question Time last week.

There was a comment on here against free tuition fees a few weeks back, with Lucy Hunter Blackburn cited. She has a PhD in education funding so she's certainly a qualified source. It's worth recognising her connections, though. Here's her output for Nelson's Spectator magazine:

 

Then here is her work being cited to oppose Corbyn's policy to abolish tuition fees in 2017: https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/this-is-why-not-everyone-in-scotland-thinks-free-uni

What I see happening here is a sustained campaign against free tuition fees in Scotland. It's being led by the usual right wing element and being joined by liberals associated with the Starmer movement. Both claim their opposition to free tuition fees is actually due to them caring about the poorest in society. They'll cite research by an academic like Hunter Blackburn. This is despite the standard socialist position always having been for the universal availability of benefits and against means-testing. It's also despite right wingers not giving a toss about society's poorest for the other 364 days in the year. Suddenly, when it's a chance to trick people into opposing a progressive policy, they claim to care.

Free tuition fees in Scotland are being campaigned against in this way because the policy is a threat. For as long as it exists in Scotland, it provides the threat of a good example. Corbyn in 2017 could point to it in Scotland when he was proposing it for England and Wales. This also goes for free prescription charges in Scotland which also provides the threat of a good example to England and Wales, and therefore must be extinguished. Going after free tuition fees first is the easier of the two because you can use an "it only benefits young people" notion to appeal to bitter oldies.

This right wing agenda is really about objectively harming the material conditions of the working class. They can't just say that, though, so instead they're trying to peddle it through the medium of the various identity debates. It was the SNP government who introduced these universal benefits in Scotland therefore right wingers seek to convince people these are SNP ideas (when in reality they're standard socialist positions). Straight away, that allows you to tell British identity folk, anti-trans folk (see that screenshot above) and whoever else that these policies must be reversed as they're just "SNP ploys". There's useful idiots on the SNP side, too. A Fergus Ewing constantly running down the Greens when Patrick Harvie was the sole voice defending free tuition fees on that Question Time debate last week. While Ewing's rage with the Greens might be over other policies, there's a danger there of the baby being thrown out with the bathwater.

Free tuition fees in Scotland is not a universal benefit.  It's capped so not every young Scottish person that wants to attend university qualifies, or is indeed offered a place at a Scottish university.

[Salt n Vinegar]

3 hours ago, Highlandmagar said:

So. What next. Red rose to become a pastel shade of blue?

Maybe Labour need a different approach to policies?

As they appear unwilling to confirm anything (because they don't know what the state of the economy will be like "when" they take office,) maybe they could list, say, 10 things they WILL do, in order of implementation, IF the funds are there.  

Could they do that?  What are, say, the top 3 things they'll definitely do if the cash is there? Anyone know? I'll be Donald Ducked if I know.

[carpetmonster]

5 hours ago, Jedi2 said:

Point one one 'lie'

Was that meant to say point out or are you dictating the blueprint for Jedi3 into your phone? 

[Freedom Farter]

3 hours ago, Left Back said:

Free tuition fees in Scotland is not a universal benefit.  It's capped so not every young Scottish person that wants to attend university qualifies, or is indeed offered a place at a Scottish university.

The term "universal" in this context indicates non-means-tested. There will always be caps on universal benefits because budgets aren't infinite. The more amenable a government is to public investment, the larger the budgets.

[Left Back]

4 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

The term "universal" in this context indicates non-means-tested. There will always be caps on universal benefits because budgets aren't infinite. The more amenable a government is to public investment, the larger the budgets.

So preventing young people from university because of a cap or making them pay for it = OK because budgets aren't infinite.

Capping child benefits to 2 children (for example) = cruel but the budgets still aren't infinite?

Am I getting this correct?

[Freedom Farter]

1 hour ago, Left Back said:

So preventing young people from university because of a cap or making them pay for it = OK because budgets aren't infinite.

Capping child benefits to 2 children (for example) = cruel but the budgets still aren't infinite?

Am I getting this correct?

Tuition is free in the Nordic nations which are similar in size to Scotland. Tuition is free in Germany which is similar in size to UK. It's a normal policy.

However, full implementation needs governance that supports it. In our case, austerity has led to restrictions on Holyrood's attempt at it and Westminster's lack of any attempt at it at all.

Edited February 8 by Freedom Farter

[Left Back]

10 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

Tuition is free in the Nordic nations which are similar in size to Scotland. Tuition is free in Germany which is similar in size to UK. It's a normal policy.

However, full implementation needs governance that supports it. In our case, austerity has led to restrictions on Holyrood's attempt at it and Westminster's lack of any attempt at it all.

Caps are OK as long as you can blame someone else.  Is that better?

Of course an alternative to blindly blaming austerity and Westminster when comparing us to other countries is to look at how much they pay in tax.  In your two quoted countries they both pay more tax than us which is why they can afford better pubic services.  We supposedly want better public services in the country (well lots of people scream about it anyway) but people don't want to pay the tax to support it.

[Freedom Farter]

2 minutes ago, Left Back said:

Caps are OK as long as you can blame someone else.  Is that better?

No idea what you mean here.

 

3 minutes ago, Left Back said:

Of course an alternative to blindly blaming austerity and Westminster when comparing us to other countries is to look at how much they pay in tax.  In your two quoted countries they both pay more tax than us which is why they can afford better pubic services.  We supposedly want better public services in the country (well lots of people scream about it anyway) but people don't want to pay the tax to support it.

There's nothing blind to blaming governments for what they do. It'd be blind to ignore what they do.

Capital gains tax and corporation tax are two examples of taxes on owners rather than on workers and which can be raised to increase revenue. Then with income tax, raises can be progressive. You're correct that the UK electorate overwhelmingly voted against that in 2019, though. 

In Scotland, we voted ourselves free of tuition fees. As you point out, the policy isn't as good as it could be but a gain has still been made there. There's now a concerted effort to convince us to vote away that gain, as I laid out in my original comment. That can't happen until 2026 but its worth recognising the groundwork that's being laid.

[Left Back]

31 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

No idea what you mean here.

 

There's nothing blind to blaming governments for what they do. It'd be blind to ignore what they do.

Capital gains tax and corporation tax are two examples of taxes on owners rather than on workers and which can be raised to increase revenue. Then with income tax, raises can be progressive. You're correct that the UK electorate overwhelmingly voted against that in 2019, though. 

In Scotland, we voted ourselves free of tuition fees. As you point out, the policy isn't as good as it could be but a gain has still been made there. There's now a concerted effort to convince us to vote away that gain, as I laid out in my original comment. That can't happen until 2026 but its worth recognising the groundwork that's being laid.

In the interests of international comparison that's not how the higher tax countries tend to achieve higher taxes.

https://ifs.org.uk/taxlab/taxlab-key-questions/how-do-uk-tax-revenues-compare-internationally?tab=tab-389

It's the same old argument.  You want more tax paid but not by yourself.

Edited February 8 by Left Back