Jedi2 Posted Thursday at 22:45 Share Posted Thursday at 22:45 38 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said: Where did I say that? Stop putting words in other people's mouths. 'And here's Jedi repeating his list of previously debunked claims.' (Of SNP U-turns) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi2 Posted Thursday at 22:55 Share Posted Thursday at 22:55 (edited) 43 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said: Uh. Jedi - I asked you a question about previously privatised industries. I didn't make any statement stating that you were in favour of privatisation. A socialist should believe in the mutual ownership of all these industries. You say that you believe in nationalisation of at least 4 of them. That's good. Why then, are you attempting to persuade people to vote for a party that has abandoned these socialist principles? Given its a Forum with around 95% SNP support, I am hardly trying to 'persuade' people to vote for an alternative party...views are entrenched. I believe the Labour Party to be centre-left, both in the past, and today. Is it outrightly 'Socialist'? No, but it does still pursue policies and values which are compatible with Socialism, again in the past and also in the present eg Rail Nationalisation VAT on Private Schools Taxing Oil and Gas profits A Nationally Owned Energy Company Workers Rights (hire and fire, zero hours, enhancing Trade Union Rights and legislation) Tackling violence against women and girls Properly funding the NHS Massive house building programme Going after tax avoidance by non-doms and large corporations Taxing property developers profits Each and every one of these is on the 'left' of the spectrum. Not calling for a full scale renationialisation of all industries while 'disappointing' doesn't mean it had moved entirely to the 'right' or abandoned the general ethos of a left-wing party. No party is 'perfect', believe it or not (not even the SNP). You can only vote for who you think represents the best interests of the majority of people Edited Thursday at 22:58 by Jedi2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lichtgilphead Posted Thursday at 23:16 Share Posted Thursday at 23:16 15 minutes ago, Jedi2 said: 'And here's Jedi repeating his list of previously debunked claims.' (Of SNP U-turns) Just because your claims have been debunked does not mean that every policy has been put into practice. Some have been blocked by Westminster Some have been blocked by a democratic vote in Holyrood (when the SNP were running a minority administration) Some are ongoing commitments which are not scheduled for completion until futire dates. Why don't you read back up the threads where you have made these claims before, rather than boring everyone with yet another list of crap? 12 minutes ago, Jedi2 said: Given its a Forum with around 95% SNP support, I am hardly trying to 'persuade' people to vote for an alternative party...views are entrenched. I believe the Labour Party to be centre-left, both in the past, and today. Is it outrightly 'Socialist'? No, but it does still pursue policies and values which are compatible with Socialism, again in the past and also in the present eg Rail Nationalisation VAT on Private Schools Taxing Oil and Gas profits A Nationally Owned Energy Company Workers Rights (hire and fire, zero hours, enhancing Trade Union Rights and legislation) Tackling violence against women and girls Properly funding the NHS Massive house building programme Going after tax avoidance by non-doms and large corporations Taxing property developers profits Each and every one of these is on the 'left' of the spectrum. Not calling for a full scale renationialisation of all industries while 'disappointing' doesn't mean it had moved entirely to the 'right' or abandoned the general ethos of a left-wing party. No party is 'perfect', believe it or not (not even the SNP). You can only vote for who you think represents the best interests of the majority of people Oh. Here's another list of crap. FFS The only thing I'll comment on is the claim that the Labour Party is cntre-left. According to The Political Compass, here are the relative positions of UK parties as at 24th May 2024 https://www.politicalcompass.org/uk2024 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted Friday at 03:39 Share Posted Friday at 03:39 (edited) 4 hours ago, Jedi2 said: Given its a Forum with around 95% SNP support, I am hardly trying to 'persuade' people to vote for an alternative party...views are entrenched. I believe the Labour Party to be centre-left, both in the past, and today. Is it outrightly 'Socialist'? No, but it does still pursue policies and values which are compatible with Socialism, again in the past and also in the present eg Rail Nationalisation VAT on Private Schools Taxing Oil and Gas profits A Nationally Owned Energy Company Workers Rights (hire and fire, zero hours, enhancing Trade Union Rights and legislation) Tackling violence against women and girls Properly funding the NHS Massive house building programme Going after tax avoidance by non-doms and large corporations Taxing property developers profits Each and every one of these is on the 'left' of the spectrum. Not calling for a full scale renationialisation of all industries while 'disappointing' doesn't mean it had moved entirely to the 'right' or abandoned the general ethos of a left-wing party. No party is 'perfect', believe it or not (not even the SNP). You can only vote for who you think represents the best interests of the majority of people It abandoned socialism when it dropped Clause IV. Labour hasn't been a socialist party in 30 years. Edited Friday at 03:39 by DeeTillEhDeh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlandmagar Posted Friday at 05:10 Share Posted Friday at 05:10 6 hours ago, Jedi2 said: Given its a Forum with around 95% SNP support, I am hardly trying to 'persuade' people to vote for an alternative party...views are entrenched. I believe the Labour Party to be centre-left, both in the past, and today. Is it outrightly 'Socialist'? No, but it does still pursue policies and values which are compatible with Socialism, again in the past and also in the present eg Rail Nationalisation VAT on Private Schools Taxing Oil and Gas profits A Nationally Owned Energy Company Workers Rights (hire and fire, zero hours, enhancing Trade Union Rights and legislation) Tackling violence against women and girls Properly funding the NHS Massive house building programme Going after tax avoidance by non-doms and large corporations Taxing property developers profits Each and every one of these is on the 'left' of the spectrum. Not calling for a full scale renationialisation of all industries while 'disappointing' doesn't mean it had moved entirely to the 'right' or abandoned the general ethos of a left-wing party. No party is 'perfect', believe it or not (not even the SNP). You can only vote for who you think represents the best interests of the majority of people Centre left? You really have veen suckered there. They aren't even centre these days. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty dingus Posted Friday at 05:26 Share Posted Friday at 05:26 I believe the Labour Party to be centre-left, both in the past, and today. Is it outrightly 'Socialist'? No, but it does still pursue policies and values which are compatible with Socialism All the left leaning and socialist commentators I see on twitter Owen Jones, Ash Sarkar, Kerry Anne Mendoza, Adam Bienkov etc... certainly don't see Sir Keir's version of a socialist utopia being compatible to their political outlook. Obviously they are all anti-Semite Corbynites not true red flag wavers like Natalie Elphicke and Mark Logan. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunning1874 Posted Friday at 08:11 Share Posted Friday at 08:11 Even for someone with as abhorrent a record on racism as Starmer, bending over backwards to f**k over Labour's candidate in Clacton helping Nigel Farage win the seat because that candidate is black and is getting too much attention for being openly opposed to racism which undermines Labour nationally is jaw dropping. Logically then you can only conclude they don't want to be seen to oppose racism, which tracks with the ignoring of the Forde report and legal threats made against Forde when he spoke out about it, Starmer's horrific comments about Bangladeshis and the well documented mistreatment of ethnic minorities within the Labour Party, whether that's his antisemitic purge of Jewish members, the hierarchy of racism deployed against black members in the disciplinary system or deliberate targeting of Muslim women for deselection. This party is not just institutionally racist but actively proud of it, gleefully patting themselves on the back and whispering to the press via 'anonymous sources' about how clever and electable it makes them. It's extremely worrying that they could do something as horrific as Windrush with that unrepentantly racist, deportation obsessed pondlife as Prime Minister. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crùbag Posted Friday at 11:26 Share Posted Friday at 11:26 23 hours ago, Granny Danger said: I’m happy to see Labour doing anything (nothing) in Clacton if it means more folk will vote Tory and keep Farage out. That's understandable but given both Labour and Tory didn't engage Farage at the debates, it's fair to assume they share more common ground than they should. Moreso given Starmer's recent outburst about Bangladeshis at a Sun debate. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw4y3njqqzpo 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crùbag Posted Friday at 11:29 Share Posted Friday at 11:29 12 hours ago, Jedi2 said: Given its a Forum with around 95% SNP support, I am hardly trying to 'persuade' people to vote for an alternative party...views are entrenched. I believe the Labour Party to be centre-left, both in the past, and today. Is it outrightly 'Socialist'? No, but it does still pursue policies and values which are compatible with Socialism, again in the past and also in the present eg Rail Nationalisation VAT on Private Schools Taxing Oil and Gas profits A Nationally Owned Energy Company Workers Rights (hire and fire, zero hours, enhancing Trade Union Rights and legislation) Tackling violence against women and girls Properly funding the NHS Massive house building programme Going after tax avoidance by non-doms and large corporations Taxing property developers profits Each and every one of these is on the 'left' of the spectrum. Not calling for a full scale renationialisation of all industries while 'disappointing' doesn't mean it had moved entirely to the 'right' or abandoned the general ethos of a left-wing party. No party is 'perfect', believe it or not (not even the SNP). You can only vote for who you think represents the best interests of the majority of people Labour left-wing? Aye right. Many of your points are debatable and the Tories would say similar. Indeed, as to the NHS, they want to "improve" but giving more of it away to private pirates. As to housing ,they built exactly 6 social-houses during their last stint in power. Yon GB Energy won't generate anything but will just give yet more public money to private sharks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi2 Posted Friday at 14:30 Share Posted Friday at 14:30 2 hours ago, Crùbag said: Labour left-wing? Aye right. Many of your points are debatable and the Tories would say similar. Indeed, as to the NHS, they want to "improve" but giving more of it away to private pirates. As to housing ,they built exactly 6 social-houses during their last stint in power. Yon GB Energy won't generate anything but will just give yet more public money to private sharks. You missed off three figures in your Social Housing stat: 6510 between 1997 and 2010: https://fullfact.org/economy/who-built-more-council-houses-margaret-thatcher-or-new-labour/ And you are buying the Tory trope that GB Energy won't actually 'produce any energy' Don't think the Tories are likely to slap VAT on Private Schools, tax oil and gas profits, nationalise rail, set up Breakfast clubs in every school, have a Workers Rights Charter, end hire and fire etc. As far as Private Provision in the NHS is concerned, as we know, the SNP shuffled £850 million into Private Healthcare provision recently, with Neil Gray wanting 'more'. Freezing Council Tax to appease the middle-class,and starve local govt of funding, Kate Forbes calling for more foreign 'investment' to buy up Scottish assets, and of course slashing public services to the bone for a decade with Independence...all very 'left-wing' right enough. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crùbag Posted Friday at 15:05 Share Posted Friday at 15:05 34 minutes ago, Jedi2 said: You missed off three figures in your Social Housing stat: 6510 between 1997 and 2010: https://fullfact.org/economy/who-built-more-council-houses-margaret-thatcher-or-new-labour/ And you are buying the Tory trope that GB Energy won't actually 'produce any energy' Don't think the Tories are likely to slap VAT on Private Schools, tax oil and gas profits, nationalise rail, set up Breakfast clubs in every school, have a Workers Rights Charter, end hire and fire etc. As far as Private Provision in the NHS is concerned, as we know, the SNP shuffled £850 million into Private Healthcare provision recently, with Neil Gray wanting 'more'. Freezing Council Tax to appease the middle-class,and starve local govt of funding, Kate Forbes calling for more foreign 'investment' to buy up Scottish assets, and of course slashing public services to the bone for a decade with Independence...all very 'left-wing' right enough. I'm going by what Starmer said. So Tory trope? Aye. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAD Posted Friday at 15:20 Share Posted Friday at 15:20 46 minutes ago, Jedi2 said: You missed off three figures in your Social Housing stat: 6510 between 1997 and 2010: https://fullfact.org/economy/who-built-more-council-houses-margaret-thatcher-or-new-labour/ And you are buying the Tory trope that GB Energy won't actually 'produce any energy' Don't think the Tories are likely to slap VAT on Private Schools, tax oil and gas profits, nationalise rail, set up Breakfast clubs in every school, have a Workers Rights Charter, end hire and fire etc. As far as Private Provision in the NHS is concerned, as we know, the SNP shuffled £850 million into Private Healthcare provision recently, with Neil Gray wanting 'more'. Freezing Council Tax to appease the middle-class,and starve local govt of funding, Kate Forbes calling for more foreign 'investment' to buy up Scottish assets, and of course slashing public services to the bone for a decade with Independence...all very 'left-wing' right enough. Starmer has already said this. GB Energy won't generate or supply power. It's an "investment vehicle", which will be mostly "invisible to consumers". It'll be used to funnel public money into infrastructure projects driven by the existing energy companies themselves, presumably to take some of the profits back when they come. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheese Posted Friday at 15:24 Share Posted Friday at 15:24 It's PFI 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btb Posted Friday at 15:24 Share Posted Friday at 15:24 52 minutes ago, Jedi2 said: You missed off three figures in your Social Housing stat: 6510 between 1997 and 2010: https://fullfact.org/economy/who-built-more-council-houses-margaret-thatcher-or-new-labour/ And you are buying the Tory trope that GB Energy won't actually 'produce any energy' Don't think the Tories are likely to slap VAT on Private Schools, tax oil and gas profits, nationalise rail, set up Breakfast clubs in every school, have a Workers Rights Charter, end hire and fire etc. As far as Private Provision in the NHS is concerned, as we know, the SNP shuffled £850 million into Private Healthcare provision recently, with Neil Gray wanting 'more'. Freezing Council Tax to appease the middle-class,and starve local govt of funding, Kate Forbes calling for more foreign 'investment' to buy up Scottish assets, and of course slashing public services to the bone for a decade with Independence...all very 'left-wing' right enough. Do you work for the Labour Party? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MazzyStar Posted Friday at 15:25 Share Posted Friday at 15:25 On 26/06/2024 at 22:53, Thane of Cawdor said: Is Ashworth doing his impression of David Brent here? Labour is indeed a broad church, except for those inconvenient Socialists. We have a TUSC candidate in our constituency. He is standing on what looks like a classic Labour platform, I think I'll try to get his vote to four figures. TUSC are trots. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheese Posted Friday at 15:35 Share Posted Friday at 15:35 -empty platitudes about bare minimum historical achievements. -vague bullshit leaving out the most important details about what we're going to do. - SNP whataboutery -empty platitudes about bare minimum historical achievements. -vague bullshit leaving out the most important details about what we're going to do. - SNP whataboutery -empty platitudes about bare minimum historical achievements. -vague bullshit leaving out the most important details about what we're going to do. - SNP whataboutery 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi2 Posted Friday at 16:47 Share Posted Friday at 16:47 1 hour ago, btb said: Do you work for the Labour Party? No. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sophia Posted Friday at 16:55 Share Posted Friday at 16:55 2 hours ago, Jedi2 said: And you are buying the Tory trope that GB Energy won't actually 'produce any energy' With an age old socialist tradition they may well bankroll private companies with our money but as for generating their own power, well they certainly won't be doing that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salt n Vinegar Posted Friday at 20:12 Share Posted Friday at 20:12 3 hours ago, sophia said: With an age old socialist tradition they may well bankroll private companies with our money but as for generating their own power, well they certainly won't be doing that. Happy to be corrected, but isn't it the case that one dude with solar panels will generate more electricity than Labour's GB Energy? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sophia Posted Friday at 20:21 Share Posted Friday at 20:21 5 minutes ago, Salt n Vinegar said: Happy to be corrected, but isn't it the case that one dude with solar panels will generate more electricity than Labour's GB Energy? A dynamo on the regimental P&B hamster's wheel would make a potential difference, Labour, not so much 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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