The normalisation of the far-right continues

[carpetmonster]

I like immigrants but I couldn’t eat a whole one. 

[Todd_is_God]

26 minutes ago, GHF-23 said:

A little creative license but happy to stand by it xxx

Oh so by "street fighting gang" you meant the Police, and "climate protesters" you meant animal rights activists. You say "little creative license" I'd say completely made up.

[GHF-23]

Just now, Todd_is_God said:

Oh so by "street fighting gang" you meant the Police, and "climate protesters" you meant animal rights activists. You say "little creative license" I'd say completely made up.

It still demonstrates the point, that you are a petty reactionary with violent fantasies. So as I say happy to stand by it. 

But to go back to your original point - who are you talking about here? Because we've demonstrated that Europe is currently full of centrist, centre left and leftist parties that are in favour of tightening immigration controls, including in the countries where it's being done so it's not just rhetoric. Even that virulently toxic post by Elixir (that you'll probably remember because you liked it) pointed out it's the Danish social democrats who are introducing controls. That hasn't stopped the far right popularity thus far so what's your explanation? Maybe there's something undergirding the feeling in Europe that everything is going to shit other than immigration and culture war. 

I've said myself that the post-Syria refugee waves haven't been successfully integrated, and talk about immigration here is by no means holding hands dancing round rainbows, people realise the issues with it. And I don't even really recognise your earlier point to another poster about just calling voters racist, maybe the odd over simplifier. So is it just that this isn't a cultural hegemonic point of view that you object to? That might explain why you don't actually say what you think about it other than chastising a vaguely defined group of people being in a Vacuum Chamber. You said "etc" as well in your original post, what liberal left views were you talking about? Really keen for you to flesh out your own views on these issues mate as would really help us understand your point better.

 

[A Diamond For Me]

58 minutes ago, GHF-23 said:

It still demonstrates the point, that you are a petty reactionary with violent fantasies. So as I say happy to stand by it. 

But to go back to your original point - who are you talking about here? Because we've demonstrated that Europe is currently full of centrist, centre left and leftist parties that are in favour of tightening immigration controls, including in the countries where it's being done so it's not just rhetoric. Even that virulently toxic post by Elixir (that you'll probably remember because you liked it) pointed out it's the Danish social democrats who are introducing controls. That hasn't stopped the far right popularity thus far so what's your explanation? Maybe there's something undergirding the feeling in Europe that everything is going to shit other than immigration and culture war. 

I've said myself that the post-Syria refugee waves haven't been successfully integrated, and talk about immigration here is by no means holding hands dancing round rainbows, people realise the issues with it. And I don't even really recognise your earlier point to another poster about just calling voters racist, maybe the odd over simplifier. So is it just that this isn't a cultural hegemonic point of view that you object to? That might explain why you don't actually say what you think about it other than chastising a vaguely defined group of people being in a Vacuum Chamber. You said "etc" as well in your original post, what liberal left views were you talking about? Really keen for you to flesh out your own views on these issues mate as would really help us understand your point better.

 

 

It's far too soon to say that.  These things take time.  What makes it harder is that there's less and less for them to integrate into as society becomes so atomised, but it'll come.  I think it's also unclear what people mean when they say integration - what aspects of local culture do people need to embrace or participate in?  A friend of mine met a Syrian guy in Stornoway who came there as a refugee.  He speaks pretty passable Gaelic, but he makes his living selling wraps and other Middle Eastern food, and is more likely to be a Muslim than to be in the Free Kirk.   Would we consider him more integrated if he sold tattie scones, or attended a church that most members of this board wouldn't go near?

[GHF-23]

2 minutes ago, A Diamond For Me said:

 

It's far too soon to say that.  These things take time.  What makes it harder is that there's less and less for them to integrate into as society becomes so atomised, but it'll come.  I think it's also unclear what people mean when they say integration - what aspects of local culture do people need to embrace or participate in?  A friend of mine met a Syrian guy in Stornoway who came there as a refugee.  He speaks pretty passable Gaelic, but he makes his living selling wraps and other Middle Eastern food, and is more likely to be a Muslim than to be in the Free Kirk.   Would we consider him more integrated if he sold tattie scones, or attended a church that most members of this board wouldn't go near?

That was largely my point in other posts tbf, the largest issue with integration is our atomised society more than some cultural failing of immigrants in my view. Obviously taking in refugees you're going to end up with a tiny minority of deeply disturbed people which leads to notable incidents like the German stabbings etc; and when you bring in especially high numbers like, again, Germany into a modern atomised western society there's going to be a deal of ghettoisation, which we wouldn't see in your example with smaller numbers in a smaller population, it's a different experience. I obviously don't think integration means completely absorbing the local culture.

When I say failed, I mean primarily that no longer supported by a sufficient plurality or majority of the host nation to remain sustainable, as once the top's off that bottle it's very hard to go backwards. That's something I'm sad about but I think it's the realistic position. 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

23 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

Far right win today's Austrian general election:

Austrian general election (92 seats for majority)
29% to 30%     57 seats     Far right (FPO)
26% to 27%     51 seats     Conservatives (OVP)
20% to 21%     40 seats     Labour (SPD)
                    9%     17 seats     Liberals (NEOS)
      8% to 9%     17 seats     Greens
                    2%        0 seats     Communists
                 +4%        0 seats     others

First time since the collapse of the Hapsburg Empire that neither Labour or Conservatives have come top.

They didn't win - they just happen to be the biggest party - a very different thing.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

22 hours ago, Todd_is_God said:

I wonder how many more elections need to be won by far right parties before the liberal left consider they might be living in a vacuum chamber where their views on immigration etc are not as in line with as much of the population as they think...

Migration crisis has been caused by conservative governments, economic mess has been caused by further right conservative governments. 

1 hour ago, A Diamond For Me said:

 

It's far too soon to say that.  These things take time.  What makes it harder is that there's less and less for them to integrate into as society becomes so atomised, but it'll come.  I think it's also unclear what people mean when they say integration - what aspects of local culture do people need to embrace or participate in?  A friend of mine met a Syrian guy in Stornoway who came there as a refugee.  He speaks pretty passable Gaelic, but he makes his living selling wraps and other Middle Eastern food, and is more likely to be a Muslim than to be in the Free Kirk.   Would we consider him more integrated if he sold tattie scones, or attended a church that most members of this board wouldn't go near?

No one should be forced to integrate but a commitment to learning English would be good considering the public sector is spending about £120m on translation services alone. Its also a barrier to the workplace etc. 

[SandyCromarty]

1 hour ago, GHF-23 said:

That was largely my point in other posts tbf, the largest issue with integration is our atomised society more than some cultural failing of immigrants in my view. Obviously taking in refugees you're going to end up with a tiny minority of deeply disturbed people which leads to notable incidents like the German stabbings etc; and when you bring in especially high numbers like, again, Germany into a modern atomised western society there's going to be a deal of ghettoisation, which we wouldn't see in your example with smaller numbers in a smaller population, it's a different experience. I obviously don't think integration means completely absorbing the local culture.

When I say failed, I mean primarily that no longer supported by a sufficient plurality or majority of the host nation to remain sustainable, as once the top's off that bottle it's very hard to go backwards. That's something I'm sad about but I think it's the realistic position. 

Germany since WW2 has had large populations of immigrant workforces largely due to the loss of german manpower during the war, these were mainly Yugoslav and Turkish, I did a shipyard years ago in Hapag LLoyds yard in Bremerhaven and the bulk of the workforce was Yugoslav supervised by Germans, we had a few Turkish but they were unreliable owing to them working other mostly night jobs in supermarkets or filling stations.

The yugoslavs were a good bunch but mostly kept to themselves in areas of Bremerhaven which you could I suppose describe as Ghettos.

Another shipyard job in Hamburgs Blohm and Voss had plenty of UK welders mostly from Tyneside.

So really Germany's amazing rebuild after WW2 was built on foreign labour, apparently the Ford factory in Cologne was 95% manned by Turkish with no trade unions allowed.

Germany realised they had an immigrant problem as available local german manpower increased so one plan they came up with was to offer 10,000 Deutschmarks to any working immigrant to return to their own country, the story is that the Turkish jumped at the offer but most of them moved to Sweden to work in the shipyards and car factories there.