Israel lobby v Corbyn

[BigDoddyKane]

Theres a lot of posters on this thread with very good knowledge of the situation, have varying ideas so Id be interested to read with the aim to having a complete solution that is possible, workable, fair and creates peace and the ability to move forward into the future and leave the current situation behind.

What is your solution to it all and what would need done to make solution work? 

I may ask some questions on it if anyone posts  

Edited May 20, 2021 by BigDoddyKane

[WhiteRoseKillie]

1 hour ago, Granny Danger said:

I’ve done a Google search this morning and cannot see any of the MSM reporting this let alone condemning it.

Probably buried in the mountain of reports of HM Opposition's frontbenchers condemning it wholesale. I'm sure my Party will live up to its core values and defend the repressed. 

(above post may contain sarcasm, and a soupcon of despair)

[WhiteRoseKillie]

1 hour ago, BigDoddyKane said:

Theres a lot of posters on this thread with very good knowledge of the situation, have varying ideas so Id be interested to read with the aim to having a complete solution that is possible, workable, fair and creates peace and the ability to move forward into the future and leave the current situation behind.

What is your solution to it all and what would need done to make solution work? 

I may ask some questions on it if anyone posts  

The start for a solution, at least in terms of International response and reporting, would be to stop accepting that criticism of Israel's actions is inherently anti-semitic. Because in many cases, and certainly in this case, using this particular fig-leaf is fucking obscene. Killing innocent women and children and leaving thousands homeless* has nothing to do with religion or faith. It's just fucking vile.

*Bear in mind that "normal" life for these people means no secure clean water, unreliable power, and the fear that at any time your home is going under the bulldozers to make room for more "settlers"

[BigDoddyKane]

15 minutes ago, WhiteRoseKillie said:

The start for a solution, at least in terms of International response and reporting, would be to stop accepting that criticism of Israel's actions is inherently anti-semitic. Because in many cases, and certainly in this case, using this particular fig-leaf is fucking obscene. Killing innocent women and children and leaving thousands homeless* has nothing to do with religion or faith. It's just fucking vile.

*Bear in mind that "normal" life for these people means no secure clean water, unreliable power, and the fear that at any time your home is going under the bulldozers to make room for more "settlers"

ok and what is the solution in your opinion in terms of land ownership and how do they get there?

[WhiteRoseKillie]

15 minutes ago, BigDoddyKane said:

ok and what is the solution in your opinion in terms of land ownership and how do they get there?

There will never be a solution while Israel continues to act in a manner which would be internationally condemned if carried out by any other nation on earth. Hang on, they are condemned regularly - maybe the first step is removing the USA's veto in the UN. 

[BigDoddyKane]

25 minutes ago, WhiteRoseKillie said:

There will never be a solution while Israel continues to act in a manner which would be internationally condemned if carried out by any other nation on earth. Hang on, they are condemned regularly - maybe the first step is removing the USA's veto in the UN. 

Thats why im asking, there are solutions and some are actually "possible" that would move this forward

So if thats the solution and its "possible" how do you remove that Veto?

[D Angelo Barksdale]

2 hours ago, BigDoddyKane said:

Theres a lot of posters on this thread with very good knowledge of the situation, have varying ideas so Id be interested to read with the aim to having a complete solution that is possible, workable, fair and creates peace and the ability to move forward into the future and leave the current situation behind.

What is your solution to it all and what would need done to make solution work? 

I may ask some questions on it if anyone posts  

One side enjoys full backing and funding from the world's biggest superpower and are able to flout and break international law at will, with absolutely zero consequences.

I believe that the current Israeli administration is opposed to the one state solution, the two state solution and any recognition of Palestine as a state.

Until this changes, the prospect of any type of solution is remote.

[BigDoddyKane]

9 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

One side enjoys full backing and funding from the world's biggest superpower and are able to flout and break international law at will, with absolutely zero consequences.

I believe that the current Israeli administration is opposed to the one state solution, the two state solution and any recognition of Palestine as a state.

Until this changes, the prospect of any type of solution is remote.

So its never impossible and those are good points

1. How do you address Americas full backing and make it better 

2. How do you change a) the current Israeli administration to another one accepting of a 1 or 2 state solution or b) change current administration opposition to Palestine being recognised as a state

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by BigDoddyKane

[GordonS]

3 hours ago, BigDoddyKane said:

Theres a lot of posters on this thread with very good knowledge of the situation, have varying ideas so Id be interested to read with the aim to having a complete solution that is possible, workable, fair and creates peace and the ability to move forward into the future and leave the current situation behind.

What is your solution to it all and what would need done to make solution work? 

I may ask some questions on it if anyone posts  

In my final year at uni we had a mock Middle East peace conference. I was assigned to the Palestinian team, and there was a bit of added spice by the Israel team having a couple of guys wearing kippahs. They weren't on our course, I'd never seen them before and I've no idea how they came to be there.

During one of our prep sessions someone asked exactly your question. Only he summed it up by asking "I mean, what's the final solution?"

17 minutes ago, BigDoddyKane said:

So its never impossible and those are good points

1. How do you address Americas full backing and make it better 

2. How do you change a) the current Israeli administration to another one accepting of a 1 or 2 state solution or b) change current administration opposition to Palestine being recognised as a state

 

1. I have some hope in things like the Black Lives Matter movement and greater recognition for native Americans (or whatever the right term is now) that Americans will come to see it for what it is - the colonial occupation and ethnic cleansing of an indigenous people. It'll take a long time though and those who control the media are very pro-Israeli, so it will take time and may never lead to anything. I remember on 9/11 thinking that maybe now Americans would ask themselves what caused this, but of course they doubled down on stupid instead.

2. The real problem is the Israeli people. A clear majority of them just want the Palestinians to fk off. They've had security for a long time now - the wall, all the checkpoints, corralling the Palestinians into smaller and smaller reservations - and as far as they're concerned there's no need to make any concessions, they've got what they want.

Many still want more though, and the trigger for this current outbreak of violence was the ethnic cleansing of East Jerusalem. For years now they've been slowly and patiently forcing Palestinians out of Jerusalem through all sorts of things, especially through encouraging Israeli landlords to buy up property and force out the tenants. They have refused to let citizens in East Jerusalem vote in Palestinian elections and Palestinians there are brutally harassed by the police every day. But generally, they've got what they want, they now have the iron dome that reduces the threat from missiles to a tiny risk, and they're not interested in any concessions. The divide in their politics isn't between those who want to negotiate with the Palestinians and those who don't, it's between those who think the settlements are more trouble that they're worth and those who want even more.

 

As for your question, there's absolutely no way that there will be peace in the region without justice, and justice means Israel getting out of the West Bank entirely (which means giving up all the settlements), and lifting the blockade of Gaza. Reparations would be nice too. What's been happening over the past 50 years or so is very much like the Protestant settlement of Ulster - four hundred years later and they're still fighting. My guess is that, because of the settlements and the theft of homes and land, there will be conflict in Israel and the occupied territories for centuries, because the window for giving up the settlements is closing fast as each new generation is born in them and calls them home.

[BigDoddyKane]

4 minutes ago, GordonS said:

In my final year at uni we had a mock Middle East peace conference. I was assigned to the Palestinian team, and there was a bit of added spice by the Israel team having a couple of guys wearing kippahs. They weren't on our course, I'd never seen them before and I've no idea how they came to be there.

During one of our prep sessions someone asked exactly your question. Only he summed it up by asking "I mean, what's the final solution?"

1. I have some hope in things like the Black Lives Matter movement and greater recognition for native Americans (or whatever the right term is now) that Americans will come to see it for what it is - the colonial occupation and ethnic cleansing of an indigenous people. It'll take a long time though and those who control the media are very pro-Israeli, so it will take time and may never lead to anything. I remember on 9/11 thinking that maybe now Americans would ask themselves what caused this, but of course they doubled down on stupid instead.

2. The real problem is the Israeli people. A clear majority of them just want the Palestinians to fk off. They've had security for a long time now - the wall, all the checkpoints, corralling the Palestinians into smaller and smaller reservations - and as far as they're concerned there's no need to make any concessions, they've got what they want.

Many still want more though, and the trigger for this current outbreak of violence was the ethnic cleansing of East Jerusalem. For years now they've been slowly and patiently forcing Palestinians out of Jerusalem through all sorts of things, especially through encouraging Israeli landlords to buy up property and force out the tenants. They have refused to let citizens in East Jerusalem vote in Palestinian elections and Palestinians there are brutally harassed by the police every day. But generally, they've got what they want, they now have the iron dome that reduces the threat from missiles to a tiny risk, and they're not interested in any concessions. The divide in their politics isn't between those who want to negotiate with the Palestinians and those who don't, it's between those who think the settlements are more trouble that they're worth and those who want even more.

 

As for your question, there's absolutely no way that there will be peace in the region without justice, and justice means Israel getting out of the West Bank entirely (which means giving up all the settlements), and lifting the blockade of Gaza. Reparations would be nice too. What's been happening over the past 50 years or so is very much like the Protestant settlement of Ulster - four hundred years later and they're still fighting. My guess is that, because of the settlements and the theft of homes and land, there will be conflict in Israel and the occupied territories for centuries, because the window for giving up the settlements is closing fast as each new generation is born in them and calls them home.

bad choice of words at uni

on point 1 why is the American Media/Lobby so pro Israel?

on point 2, why do you think Israel acts in the way it does? 

Edited May 20, 2021 by BigDoddyKane

[D Angelo Barksdale]

40 minutes ago, BigDoddyKane said:

So its never impossible and those are good points

1. How do you address Americas full backing and make it better 

2. How do you change a) the current Israeli administration to another one accepting of a 1 or 2 state solution or b) change current administration opposition to Palestine being recognised as a state

 

1. With great difficulty I presume. Support for Israel is very much a bipartisan endeavour. Grassroots stuff will only get you so far, when you're up against the likes of AIPAC.

2. a. You can't. It's not my or your place to tell the Israeli's who to vote for. We can rule out a coup, because Israel is not a left wing South American country. Sanctions maybe, but I'd be opposed to any kind of collective punishment of normal citizens.

b. The current regime will not change their view on this. Extreme right wing groups don't tend to take their boot off your throat when they have the upper hand.

[BigDoddyKane]

7 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

1. With great difficulty I presume. Support for Israel is very much a bipartisan endeavour. Grassroots stuff will only get you so far, when you're up against the likes of AIPAC.

2. a. You can't. It's not my or your place to tell the Israeli's who to vote for. We can rule out a coup, because Israel is not a left wing South American country. Sanctions maybe, but I'd be opposed to any kind of collective punishment of normal citizens.

b. The current regime will not change their view on this. Extreme right wing groups don't tend to take their boot off your throat when they have the upper hand.

on point 2a) I wasnt looking for that so was maybe my poor choice of words but I am looking for understanding, I think maybe by understanding what are the deep down concerns for your average Israelis who arent any different from anyone else, then its up to political parties and the outside influences to show there are maybe options out of this that the international community would support. Its not hopeless 

 

what do you think are the deep down concerns that hold back Israel from accepting a compromise 2 state solution or 1 state solution for example?

Edited May 20, 2021 by BigDoddyKane

[WhiteRoseKillie]

10 minutes ago, BigDoddyKane said:

bad choice of words at uni

on point 1 why is the American Media/Lobby so pro Israel?

on point 2, why do you think Israel acts in the way it does? 

Yeah, I winced at that as well. 

1. America has a tame state in the ME which it can unleash on any other state unwilling to allow US access to their oil. Could be any one, but Israel ticked a lot of boxes for those in the Land of the Free who were already disposed to one extent or the other to be sympathetic to Israel (and in fairness, weren't we all, after the Holocaust?) - those people also ticked a lot of boxes for the pro-Israel lobby, occupying a generally higher socio-economic position than anyone sympathetic to the Palestinians*. There is also the fact that The Holy Land holds massive importance in Judaism, Faith being always a handy lever for fund-raisers to pull.

2. The short answer, at the moment, is that they're a set of racist*, bullying cúnts. A slightly longer answer is that no-one has had the balls to do the international diplomacy equivalent of pulling them to one side and saying, "Haud on, big man. That's a wee bit strong, d'ye not think?". This, imho, is the part the USA should be playing at the moment, rather than continuing to fund and support Israel's actions - and continuing to weild that veto when required. As with spoilt children, if boundaries are not set for their behaviour, they will continue down the course of action they are pursuing.  

 *    https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/israel-to-expel-black-hebrew-israelites-46323 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-32813056

https://jewishweek.timesofisrael.com/ethiopian-jews-once-hailed-now-cast-aside/

[D Angelo Barksdale]

46 minutes ago, BigDoddyKane said:

on point 2a) I wasnt looking for that so was maybe my poor choice of words but I am looking for understanding, I think maybe by understanding what are the deep down concerns for your average Israelis who arent any different from anyone else, then its up to political parties and the outside influences to show there are maybe options out of this that the international community would support. Its not hopeless 

 

what do you think are the deep down concerns that hold back Israel from accepting a compromise 2 state solution or 1 state solution for example?

The concerns for your average Israeli citizen will be much the same as any other nations's citizens, with an added emphasis on security. There is also a sizable portion of citizens and legislators, who are fully on board with ugly, racist, ethnonationalist settlement programmes and apartheid.

The current settlement policy and treatment of the Palestinians is a suitable/preferred/unfortunate/good/bad/mandatory solution for Israeli citizens concerns about security. Delete as appropriate.

On the second part, there is the continuing fear that Israel's neighbours will gang up to wipe them off the map, although they have normalised relations with many of them now. But, if the cost to Israeli lives can be minimised then there is virtually no need for the government to seek any type of solution anyway. Why risk any potential future issues when you can slowly remove or eradicate the problem and the international community will either support you or look the other way ?

[SANTAN]

5 hours ago, BigDoddyKane said:

Theres a lot of posters on this thread with very good knowledge of the situation, have varying ideas so Id be interested to read with the aim to having a complete solution that is possible, workable, fair and creates peace and the ability to move forward into the future and leave the current situation behind.

What is your solution to it all and what would need done to make solution work? 

I may ask some questions on it if anyone posts  

Move the Kurds to Patagonia. 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

1 hour ago, GordonS said:

What's been happening over the past 50 years or so is very much like the Protestant settlement of Ulster - four hundred years later and they're still fighting. 

Just noticed this. Hope you realise you've just set off a massive klaxon somewhere in deepest Buckinghamshire.

Brace yourself.

[LongTimeLurker]

5 hours ago, BigDoddyKane said:

So its never impossible and those are good points

1. How do you address Americas full backing and make it better ...

...have a sneaking suspicion that 3500+ missles fired at Israeli cities is not the most effective way to do that. People understand the cynical game that Likud are playing  right now to keep Netanyahu in power but what's less well known is that there was supposed to be a Palestinian Authority election this year:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Palestinian_legislative_election

Hamas won the last one fifteen years ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election

but Fatah effectively subsequently staged a coup to keep control of the West Bank. It's not just Netanyahu that doesn't believe in a two-state solution along Oslo Accords lines and is happy to have a crisis right now that drives the domestic electorate away from notions of compromise making it impossible to proceed with one. Think this youtube clip (by an Azeri) sums up what's happening right now in a reasonably balanced way (even if I don't agree with it verbatim) at a depth that you are unlikely to obtain from any mainstream cable news outlet nowadays:

Way ahead? Both electorates need to stop voting in their extremists and vote instead for parties that are serious about a peaceful two-state solution.

Edited May 20, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[D Angelo Barksdale]

Normal island doing normal stuff here.

 

[BigDoddyKane]

58 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

The concerns for your average Israeli citizen will be much the same as any other nations's citizens, with an added emphasis on security. There is also a sizable portion of citizens and legislators, who are fully on board with ugly, racist, ethnonationalist settlement programmes and apartheid.

The current settlement policy and treatment of the Palestinians is a suitable/preferred/unfortunate/good/bad/mandatory solution for Israeli citizens concerns about security. Delete as appropriate.

On the second part, there is the continuing fear that Israel's neighbours will gang up to wipe them off the map, although they have normalised relations with many of them now. But, if the cost to Israeli lives can be minimised then there is virtually no need for the government to seek any type of solution anyway. Why risk any potential future issues when you can slowly remove or eradicate the problem and the international community will either support you or look the other way ?

So how is that concern for security the average Israeli has addressed? Is it addressed and who can address it?

On 2nd part and the neighbours Is it a real fear or an imagined one, could it happen? Given the historical input to current situation I can believe they fear it repeating itself on some scale

Edited May 20, 2021 by BigDoddyKane

[BigDoddyKane]

10 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

...have a sneaking suspicion that 3500+ missles fired at Israeli cities is not the most effective way to do that. People understand the cynical game that Likud are playing  right now to keep Netanyahu in power but what's less well known is that there was supposed to be a Palestinian Authority election this year:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Palestinian_legislative_election

Hamas won the last one fifteen years ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election

but Fatah effectively subsequently staged a coup to keep control of the West Bank. It's not just Netanyahu that doesn't believe in a two-state solution along Oslo Accords lines and is happy to have a crisis right now that drives the domestic electorate away from notions of compromise making it impossible to proceed with one. Think this youtube clip (by an Azeri) sums up what's happening right now in a reasonably balanced way (even if I don't agree with it verbatim) at a depth that you are unlikely to obtain from any mainstream cable news outlet nowadays:

Way ahead. Both electorates need to stop voting in their extremists and vote instead for parties that are serious about a peaceful two-state solution.

Thanks I will check that clip when I get a chance, probably have some questions after it