Lowland League football, what is the future?

[Super Saddler]

Evolution not revolution. Next important step is to get the West involved which would necessarily require at least one extra promotion/relegation slot. I'm not really getting the turkeys voting for Christmas scenario. For example, despite the SFAs best efforts, the Bonnyrig/Whitehill handling by the EOS and LL and also both clubs was done in a very professional way. The LL need not have extended the cutoff date to accept Bonnyrig and just said we are sticking with Whitehill. Well done to all concerned.

 

[The Informer]

2 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

Neither are linked IMO.  Why should promotion to the SPFL be linked to relegation from the LL to tier 6? 

I'd go as far as to say opening up the LL more to tier 6 clubs further stengthens the LL and therefore provides more of a case for further SPFL access.  That, plus a West feeder probably needs to be in place with clubs moving into LL, before the SPFL give it further consideration.

The LL needs to make the first move.  West feeder plus 2 relegation spots and the SPFL might start to listen.

If the LL league clubs see some movement at the top, maybe setting the example, then they are more likely to be more open to opening up themselves.

Why is it up to the LL to make the first move?

[Born To Run]

I think there are two immediate things that the league needs to focus on getting sorted:

1) Promotion. This isn't going to change overnight (or to any great degree), so start by aiming to have the SPFL make 10th place an automatic relegation spot, leaving the Highland vs Lowland matchup a winner-takes-all affair.

2) The West of Scotland league. It makes sense to have a west and east feeder, and while the WoS would likely start off considerably weaker than the EoS Premier it could well gain ground quickly. Allow the South of Scotland to be a feeder to this WoS league (which they'd likely accept) and invite all licensed clubs yet to join the setup as well as Juniors (Clydebank etc) - The likes of Edusport and BSC would likely be keen to put reserve sides in initially if required.

[Burnie_man]

If the LL league clubs see some movement at the top, maybe setting the example, then they are more likely to be more open to opening up themselves.
Why is it up to the LL to make the first move?

Because the LL should IMO be setting an example to the SPFL of being open and accessible to clubs from tier 6, and it's within their power to do it.

I dont believe the SPFL will open up further unless there is a west feeder, and there has been several seasons of movement. One up/down with play-offs lengthens that process.

You could be waiting a while for the SPFL to make the first move.

[FairWeatherFan]

8 minutes ago, Born To Run said:

2) The West of Scotland league. It makes sense to have a west and east feeder, and while the WoS would likely start off considerably weaker than the EoS Premier it could well gain ground quickly. Allow the South of Scotland to be a feeder to this WoS league (which they'd likely accept) and invite all licensed clubs yet to join the setup as well as Juniors (Clydebank etc) - The likes of Edusport and BSC would likely be keen to put reserve sides in initially if required.

Part of me thought initially starting a WoSFA with the 6 "West of Scotland" LL sides: BSC, EK, CC, Dalbeattie, Gretna and Edusport. Probably Glasgow University as well which gets you to 7. Very least it can run a trophy with minimal distruption giving those clubs a trophy to aim for and allows a framework to be built for a WoSFL. If they can commit to that they can then send out invites to join.

 

[Pyramidic]

1 hour ago, HibeeJibee said:

Clubs don't choose where they go. Before the season starts they are allocated to either side of the salt & sauce line in the event of relegation. Gretna and Dalbeattie - and the Lanarkshire sides etc. - would go to SOSFL. There actually used to be a list on LL website but they don't seem to bother now.

That may be the case at the present but what about the future? We could have Jeanfield Swifts gaining promotion to the Lowland League at a time when the Highland League are down in numbers.  Would the SFA oversee some form of equalisation and place Jeanfield in the Highland League.  There are plenty of examples in England with yo-yo teams like Gloucester being moved by their FA between National North and National South.  Would the SFA take on a similar role?

Off track a little I am curious whether a freshly-licensed Jeanfield could in theory apply to the Highland League now given their unique geographical position? Any views?

Edited June 15, 2019 by Pyramidic

[Jason King]

whatt "unique geographical position"? Jeanfield are about 4 miles south of the dividing line.

...and the SFA would have no authority to move them anywhere, if they were to win the EoS this season they will rightly be promoted to the LL - why on earth do you think differently?

Edited June 15, 2019 by Jason King

[HibeeJibee]

Jeanfield is south of the line of longitude, south of the River Tay itself, and in Perth & Kinross (and former county of Perthshire)... they are by every argument in the Lowland + EOSL sectors.

[Pyramidic]

13 minutes ago, Jason King said:

What "unique geographical position"? Jeanfield are about 4 miles south of the dividing line.

...and the SFA would have no authority to move them anywhere other than the LL if they were to win the EoS this season - why on earth do you think differently?

Some flexibility must be built into a properly functioning Pyramid - to ensure that it works effectively in my opinion.  If we have a new WOSL and two East (EOSL bound clubs) are relegated from the LL it would be necessary to move a club from the EOSL to WOSL to achieve equalisation.  This will be even more critical if LL2E and LL2W are formed.

I agree the SFA do not have the authority at the moment but they will certainly need to come out "from behind their rock" and address these sort of issues in the future.

Edited June 15, 2019 by Pyramidic

[RobM]

On 15/06/2019 at 00:50, The Speaking Pariah said:

That is a really good point. If the SFA was run by the over the last few years, and of the calibre of character of the late Turnbull Hutton, then Scottish football, at all levels, would be finely tuned to progress and advance.

I'll second that, the EoSL admin is faultless  and is all aimed towards benefitting the clubs and the game.  There are problems when you hit the glass celing at the top of the EoSL but they aren't the fault of the League, once clubs are moving into SFA territory is where the problems start.

It's the SFA that are unable to deal with a period of transition that have caused recent problems for Bonnyrigg and Whitehill.  It needs changed as well to match the selfless dedication as exemplified by the leadership of the EoSL, there could be worse ways of doing this than bringing people from the EoSL into positions of influence within the SFA at LL level.  You want change then you have to change at the same time, playing in the EoSL has been a pleasure, they've adapted brilliantly, wish the same could be said of the body at a higher level.

Edited June 16, 2019 by RobM

[San Starko Rover]

Lowland League 2 East and West for me is the way to go and breaks the in-pass between SJFA and SFA allowing West teams a route into the pyramid without forcing teams to join and keeping the SJFA separate. It also moves the SOS down to tier 7 while potentially accepting their better clubs without the SOS losing face.

[Burnie_man]

Some flexibility must be built into a properly functioning Pyramid - to ensure that it works effectively in my opinion.  If we have a new WOSL and two East (EOSL bound clubs) are relegated from the LL it would be necessary to move a club from the EOSL to WOSL to achieve equalisation.  This will be even more critical if LL2E and LL2W are formed.

I agree the SFA do not have the authority at the moment but they will certainly need to come out "from behind their rock" and address these sort of issues in the future.

Why would an EoS club be even remotely interested in playing in a west league? You'd just relegated one more club to counter the 2 clubs coming down. We dont need to copy England and the madness of clubs in the south of the country playing in a north division.

 

[stulch]

Why would an EoS club be even remotely interested in playing in a west league? You'd just relegated one more club to counter the 2 clubs coming down. We dont need to copy England and the madness of clubs in the south of the country playing in a north division.  

Madness? It's probably not ideal but it wil be the best of the choices available.

[Burnie_man]

Madness? It's probably not ideal but it wil be the best of the choices available.

Yip, madness.

[stulch]

If the west is every set up [emoji57] They may well want a flexible east and west 'border'.

[Burnie_man]

8 minutes ago, stulch said:

If the west is every set up They may well want a flexible east and west 'border'.

I don't think you need to, you just alter relegation to lower levels to suit as and when neccesary  ie if more teams come down than go up to LL.  That's what the LL do, which WW found to their cost.

Edited June 15, 2019 by Burnie_man

[stulch]

Yip, madness.

No, on the face of it it may seem mad but it is considered believe me. Not constantly swapping the same clubs between divisions at the same level plays a part. Kettering Town near me would keep swapping, which wouldn't be fair on them, but they try not doing it too often. And the further extra leagues next year are an aim to improve it. I'm not saying it's ideal but it's better than other choices when all things are considered.

[parsforlife]

On promotion, the argument spfl sides (see the posts of a Cowdenbeath director on here). Is that the LL doesn’t contain the best sides in the region and that pyramid sides aren’t proving themselves by winning the play-off.

Both these arguments are becoming weaker,

On part A, with the movements in the east spfl sides in this region will be looking at the sides they might play with more confidence, if your Cowdenbeath, stirling, Edinburgh city or stenny then Bonnyrigg, kelty, Berwick, east Stirlingshire and spartans and probably pretty soon Linlithgow and Bo’ness are exactly who you would want to be sharing a league with if you end up relegated. They’d maybe like talbot in there but nobody else really. For those teams the LL is about as strong as it could be to drop into. Elgin also know that they would be playing the best non-spfl sides in their region.



On part b. Berwick going down will have had a lot bigger impact on the thoughts of other sides, than shire there was an element of thought that ES were ‘deserving’ to an extent, they were regularly the worst side and others thought of themselves as better than them. Berwick gives more weight to a thought process that 1 bad season and it could be them.

Self-protectionism will always play a strong factor but eventually you find yourself with not any cards to play.

We are probably a relegation from the spfl and a couple of ‘big teams’ promoted to LL away from automatic relegation

[stulch]

On promotion, the argument spfl sides (see the posts of a Cowdenbeath director on here). Is that the LL doesn’t contain the best sides in the region and that pyramid sides aren’t proving themselves by winning the play-off.

Both these arguments are becoming weaker,

On part A, with the movements in the east spfl sides in this region will be looking at the sides they might play with more confidence, if your Cowdenbeath, stirling, Edinburgh city or stenny then Bonnyrigg, kelty, Berwick, east Stirlingshire and spartans and probably pretty soon Linlithgow and Bo’ness are exactly who you would want to be sharing a league with if you end up relegated. They’d maybe like talbot in there but nobody else really. For those teams the LL is about as strong as it could be to drop into. Elgin also know that they would be playing the best non-spfl sides in their region.



On part b. Berwick going down will have had a lot bigger impact on the thoughts of other sides, than shire there was an element of thought that ES were ‘deserving’ to an extent, they were regularly the worst side and others thought of themselves as better than them. Berwick gives more weight to a thought process that 1 bad season and it could be them.

Self-protectionism will always play a strong factor but eventually you find yourself with not any cards to play.

We are probably a relegation from the spfl and a couple of ‘big teams’ promoted to LL away from automatic relegation

Yep, it'll reach a point when teams in the SPFL will look at relegated teams and think it could be us, and then think, we'll struggle to get back with just one promotion spot and how it is. When enough think this...

[stulch]

I don't think you need to, you just alter relegation to lower levels to suit as and when neccesary  ie if more teams come down than go up to LL.  That's what the LL do, which WW found to their cost.

When you do that with more levels of the pyramid though and it filtering down I think it's more of a problem. A supporter watching their team trying to work out if they're going to be relegated during the final game, well, it'll be like an episode of Countdown...