Highland Pyramid

[Cyclizine]

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

On the SPFL and HL being sounded out on Option Z front. Nothing had been heard or suggested about that idea in advance of the PWG meeting in December. In fact nothing had really been heard on the PWG front since the 4 way playoff idea was shot down earlier in the year.

Then when the meeting came around there was no "meat on the bones" of the proposal. What had shifted from an SFA perspective that they would allow another 16 clubs voting rights after limiting those rights months at the 2019 SFA AGM. How would the SPFL League Cup and SPFL Challenge Cup be restructured? How would any SPFL Playoff work?

Fairly obvious questions of significant importance to those involved. Yet there was never anything said on that front. Almost as if it was a compromise thrown out during the discussion hoping to find some consensus.

1. West Region only enter = LL & EoSFL proposal which SJFA objects as it doesn't resolve the East Region..
2. EoS Premier, SoSFL, East Region Super, West Premiership at Tier 6 =  SJFA & SoSFL fine with it but LL & EoSFL had already rejected it.
3. West Region at Tier 6 and East Region at Tier 7 feeding into EoS Premier = SFA compromise one to get all the Juniors into the pyramid at same time. EoSFL object as they don't want the East Region as a feeder
4. 3 Region Tier 5 with West Region & SoSFL feeding the West of Scotland and the East Region & EoSFL feeding the East of Scotland = SFA compromise hoping to resolve the issue in the East.

EDIT: Just to add the "SPFL" were okay with SPFL3, Colts in general, and the Celtic/Rangers Colts in SPFL2 trial with no relegation. Except when the "SPFL" went to its members they weren't having it.

Also to be noted that any changes to the SPFL playoff i.e. by including a third tier 5 league would need agreed by all parties, including the Highland League.

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, prodcast said:

I am surprised to read here that the LL-HL boundary/catchments is/are still being discussed by the administrations as I thought that was settled years ago.

For my part, the 'lowland' name has always seemed cosmetic since it doesn't approximate the Highland Boundary, which is about a line from Dumbarton to Stonehaven, and the LL includes/is fed by the Southern Uplands.

All of which seemed moot, but maybe not now...?

It's being discussed at certain levels because the Angus SPFL clubs aren't keen on the Highland League if relegated. Never have been. However, that's just 4 clubs.

Then its discussed at a non-league level over where Tayside Juniors clubs go if they were to enter the pyramid. Which amounts to technically 17 clubs, although its really only 15 since Tayport and Scone Thistle are South of the boundary. Which is where they prefer to be presumably as long as they've got their Tayside colleagues with them.

That's 19-21 clubs at a push and wouldn't be much of a discussion by now if Montrose and Brechin City had been relegated to the Highland League by now. As that's not happened though, they're trying to prevent it.

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, prodcast said:

I am surprised to read here that the LL-HL boundary/catchments is/are still being discussed by the administrations as I thought that was settled years ago...

When the Club 42 boundary was initially agreed there was no real expectation that 160+ junior clubs would be joining the party and no huge expectation that anyone other than East Stirlingshire would be getting relegated any time soon given the financial advantages that go with league membership .

In senior grade terms there was nothing nonleague on the east coast between Cove and Burntisland so the Tay looked like a sensible dividing line at that point. Circumstances changed and perspectives of what was in the best interests of clubs and leagues were modified accordingly.

[Stag Nation]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

It's easy to make a cheap jibe like that and pretend you are saying something profound. We are not talking about Tom Johnston and the SJFA here, but about people who are capable of behaving in a professional manner and who would otherwise be employable in a professional setting.

Yes, much more professional than the SJFA. But it's not so long since Petrie (and Maxwell?) turned up to a meeting with the EoSFL and didn't even know there was an HL/LL boundary.

[Stag Nation]

1 hour ago, prodcast said:

I am surprised to read here that the LL-HL boundary/catchments is/are still being discussed by the administrations as I thought that was settled years ago.

For my part, the 'lowland' name has always seemed cosmetic since it doesn't approximate the Highland Boundary, which is about a line from Dumbarton to Stonehaven, and the LL includes/is fed by the Southern Uplands.

All of which seemed moot, but maybe not now...?

Has it been moved? AFAIK neither Moray, Banffshire or Aberdeenshire have ever been regarded as Highland . When I was a kid in Morayshire, "highland" was a mild term of abuse.

[LongTimeLurker]

1 minute ago, Stag Nation said:

Yes, much more professional than the SJFA. But it's not so long since Petrie (and Maxwell?) turned up to a meeting with the EoSFL and didn't even know there was an HL/LL boundary.

That was the narrative from EoS linked people on here who were able to pretty much drown out any other perspective a lot of the time. What I am arguing is that there is strong evidence that the SFA officeholders post McRae/Regan were actually aware of the boundary but simply didn't see it as being all that important and naively expected it to easily be changed to fit the junior regions after the SJFA clubs voted to join the pyramid. Where they very much slipped up was in not understanding quickly enough that the EoS had the ability to block that from happening and would follow through on doing so.

[FairWeatherFan]

31 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Where they very much slipped up was in not understanding quickly enough that the EoS had the ability to block that from happening and would follow through on doing so.

As you have often said the EoSFL has nothing to do with the boundary between the Highland and Lowland Leagues.

[Andy groundhopper]

Looking from the outside, it seems that firstly the spfl clubs hold the key, frightened to death of relegation to HL/LL and the fact several non lge clubs are stronger than the club 42. Really think that when clubs reach a certain level, the travel,borders,etc should go out of the window. Would be good to reach a two up and down from the spfl without the need of play-offs. Apart from the old fashioned re-election crap in the English League, it can't be good for the game to see clubs struggle year after year. 

[Cyclizine]

1 minute ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Looking from the outside, it seems that firstly the spfl clubs hold the key, frightened to death of relegation to HL/LL and the fact several non lge clubs are stronger than the club 42. Really think that when clubs reach a certain level, the travel,borders,etc should go out of the window. Would be good to reach a two up and down from the spfl without the need of play-offs. Apart from the old fashioned re-election crap in the English League, it can't be good for the game to see clubs struggle year after year. 

The pyramid below the SPFL needs to get its house properly in order before any changes to the playoff will seriously be considered. It may well be that several non-league clubs are stronger than SPFL2 clubs, but until the non-league clubs are consistently being promoted from the playoff, I can't see the SPFL turkeys voting for Christmas.

[Andy groundhopper]

Maybe just me, but I find that a club romping away with the non lge could see things thrown away by playing poorly over the play off games - do you ever think there will be an automatic promotion place for both the HL/LL champions ? then club 41 plays a 2nd place club, easily winnable to retain their spfl place. 

[Cyclizine]

1 hour ago, Stag Nation said:

Has it been moved? AFAIK neither Moray, Banffshire or Aberdeenshire have ever been regarded as Highland . When I was a kid in Morayshire, "highland" was a mild term of abuse.

And vice versa...

2 hours ago, prodcast said:

I am surprised to read here that the LL-HL boundary/catchments is/are still being discussed by the administrations as I thought that was settled years ago.

For my part, the 'lowland' name has always seemed cosmetic since it doesn't approximate the Highland Boundary, which is about a line from Dumbarton to Stonehaven, and the LL includes/is fed by the Southern Uplands.

All of which seemed moot, but maybe not now...?

You can pick any definition of the Highlands you want: geological Highlands, the Highland council area, the Gàidhealtachd, the Highlands & Islands Development Agency area, NHS Highland...

"Highland" in the League sense is really a brand more than anything else, I mean,  Highland Park is from Orkney for one and Highland Spring is from Perthshire. It's the same way the Lowland League was named, I guess because it fitted with the "Highland League" and the South of Scotland League name was already in use. Now we divide the footballing Highlands from the Lowlands by that pesky line of latitude that splits the Tay Bridge...

[Cyclizine]

8 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Maybe just me, but I find that a club romping away with the non lge could see things thrown away by playing poorly over the play off games - do you ever think there will be an automatic promotion place for both the HL/LL champions ? then club 41 plays a 2nd place club, easily winnable to retain their spfl place. 

I think there should be automatic relegation/promotion. I just think pragmatically we're a long way from there. We need a few more SPFL clubs to be relegated and struggle to come back up before the others will take notice and feel that the protection they have by having no automatic trapdoor might be outweighed by the sheer struggle they'll have to come back up, if they do go down. I don't think we're anywhere near there yet.

Edited August 13, 2020 by Cyclizine

[FairWeatherFan]

4 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

And vice versa...

You can pick any definition of the Highlands you want: geological Highlands, the Highland council area, the Gàidhealtachd, the Highlands & Islands Development Agency area, NHS Highland...

"Highland" in the League sense is really a brand more than anything else, I mean,  Highland Park is from Orkney for one and Highland Spring is from Perthshire. It's the same way the Lowland League was named, I guess because it fitted with the "Highland League" and the South of Scotland League name was already in use. Now we divide the footballing Highlands from the Lowlands by that pesky line of latitude that splits the Tay Bridge...

And of course a personal favourite.

[Cyclizine]

Just now, FairWeatherFan said:

And of course a personal favourite.

I, for one, feel that Scottish football needs a strong Campbeltown League at Tier 5.

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, Cyclizine said:

I, for one, feel that Scottish football needs a strong Campbeltown League at Tier 5.

It's simple. Islands, Speyside, Campbelltown and Islay all have a playoff.

That playoff winner competes against Lowland, Highland and Club 42.

True representation of all of Scotland

Groundhoppers dream. Think of the trips!

[welshbairn]

5 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

And of course a personal favourite.

I like the way they point out Harris and Lewis which aren't really islands in the plural sense.

[prodcast]

1 hour ago, Stag Nation said:

Has it been moved? AFAIK neither Moray, Banffshire or Aberdeenshire have ever been regarded as Highland . When I was a kid in Morayshire, "highland" was a mild term of abuse.

I was referring to the Highland fault line, north of which l think it's reasonable to call 'highland'. Morayshire has some of Scotland's highest mountains, so maybe it would be better to embrace the term 'highland' than shirk it! Economically, anyhow.

[prodcast]

So nothing else can progress pyramid-wise until the 19-21 Tayside clubs come to a majority decision on whether they go Highland or Lowland?

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, prodcast said:

So nothing else can progress pyramid-wise until the 19-21 Tayside clubs come to a majority decision on whether they go Highland or Lowland?

Things are progressing without them. The creation of the WoSFL for 2020-21 into the pyramid. The NCL possibly entering the pyramid for 2020-21 and the possiblity of the North Region Juniors entering alongside or soon enough.

At this point if the Tayside Juniors are entering the pyramid its by applying to the EoSFL or hooking up with whatever Highland League feeder system gets set up.

When it comes to the Angus SPFL clubs Arbroath are in the SPFL Championship, Forfar Athletic & Montrose are in SPFL League One, and Brechin City are in SPFL League Two. Three of the clubs are immediately worried about getting relegated to the Highland or Lowland anytime soon and Brechin City's focus is in avoiding being Club 42. Brechin City possibly being relegated this year was the main driver in possibly changing the boundary line.

While the boundary line was part of discussions of the non-league PWG talks, those are over now so nothing would have been changed on that front.

[Spyro]

1 hour ago, prodcast said:

Morayshire has some of Scotland's highest mountains

Really???