Coaching/Mark Wotte/Dutch system

[woof!]

16 hours ago, Malky3 said:

I don't think I'm losing sight of anything but apart from that I agree completely with your post particularly where you say that in your opinion these players are being recruited too early. This is absolutely the case and it perpetuates. 

I just think that the performance school idea is built on flawed logic and that it offers poor return in terms of value for money. Kids are being recruited in too young. If the premise was to teach the kids good habits at an early age - labelling them as "elite" and putting them into a mainstream school where expectations of academic achievement are low isn't really the way to go about it. And at the age of 11 it's always going to be impossible to know if the child has the mental strength, the ability or will develop the physicality they'll need to survive with that kind of pressure put on them. Will they develop a bad attitude, or a growing sense of entitlement - and what happens if the kid gets a long term injury or they simply don't make it. 

14/15/16 would be a better age at which to target specialist coaching. 

 

That’s too old to truelu master technique. That needs to be done younger and with a huge amount of repetitions.

[Malky3]

2 hours ago, woof! said:

That’s too old to truelu master technique. That needs to be done younger and with a huge amount of repetitions.

And you think the only place a footballer can work on technique is at school or at a pro youth academy? 

Are you not ignoring the coaching and the skill building that got those players recruited in the first place? 

Using the examples provided earlier in the thread - Laura Muir and Chris Hoy did not get specialist coaching until they were OLDER than the age group I have said we should be targeting in football. 

 

Edited October 24, 2019 by Malky3

[Monkey Tennis]

15 hours ago, Malky3 said:

I don't know the Grange at all, but this demographics excuse for poor performance drives me nuts. It's almost like schools, teachers and politicians accept that when someone comes from a poor background there's no hope of educating them. My kids were sent on a placement request outwith our local schools catchment area to a top 30 school that sits right in the heart of a "1st Most Deprived Decile" area according to the SIMD. I've no idea if they got a better education (they certainly had a couple of bad teachers), or if they would have had the same career path as what they are on today if they had gone to the local school, but I don't regret the choice my wife and I made. What I can absolutely tell you though is that I sent the kids to that school for academic reasons - I would not have been looking to send my kids away from their local school to play football at a school that was 6th bottom of the league tables - even if I thought my son was the new Messi. 

 

Even your language here is wide of the mark.

Demographics don't provide "excuses", but they do in part explain variations in how kids perform in different settings.  I think that to deny that such factors have huge influence over various life outcomes, not just educational ones, is pretty senseless to be honest.

The issue here is that you seem to me, to be using League table data as strong evidence of how good or otherwise the education being provided is.  I don't think it's very helpful with that at all.  

[Malky3]

Just now, Monkey Tennis said:

Even your language here is wide of the mark.

Demographics don't provide "excuses", but they do in part explain variations in how kids perform in different settings.  I think that to deny that such factors have huge influence over various life outcomes, not just educational ones, is pretty senseless to be honest.

The issue here is that you seem to me, to be using League table data as strong evidence of how good or otherwise the education being provided is.  I don't think it's very helpful with that at all.  

Well you are entitled to your opinion, but you haven't convinced me in any way that the league tables are not a useful, accurate comparison method for judging the success and the performance of a number of schools in your local vicinity. 

I think we do use demographics as an excuse for poor performance and we do it too readily. Gonzohiggy talked about "broken children" and their struggle in education. Fair enough, but as I said you don't need to be from a poor background to be a broken child - something that is verified by suicide data if nothing else. 

[Monkey Tennis]

58 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Well you are entitled to your opinion, but you haven't convinced me in any way that the league tables are not a useful, accurate comparison method for judging the success and the performance of a number of schools in your local vicinity. 

I think we do use demographics as an excuse for poor performance and we do it too readily. Gonzohiggy talked about "broken children" and their struggle in education. Fair enough, but as I said you don't need to be from a poor background to be a broken child - something that is verified by suicide data if nothing else. 

You're actually display your ignorance here.  Far from using demographics as an excuse, schools instead are required to address and account for the performance of disadvantaged kids explicitly.

The difficulty is that you think an individual kid is more likely to succeed academically in a school where pupils tend to do well, than they will in one where fewer usually enjoy exam success.

My point is that this is not necessarily the case at all.  

Edited October 24, 2019 by Monkey Tennis

[Malky3]

19 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

You actually display your ignorance here.  Far from using demographics as an excuse, schools instead are required to address and account for the performance of disadvantaged kids explicitly.

The difficulty is that you think an individual kid is more likely to succeed academically in a school where pupils tend to do well, than they will in one where fewer usually enjoy exam success.

My point is that this is not necessarily the case at all.  

You used it as an excuse yesterday. 

On 23/10/2019 at 10:22, Monkey Tennis said:

Of course schools geographically close to each other might have very different exam results from each other.

Walk a few miles across any town or city and you'll see wildly different sets of circumstances from which children emerge.

Look it's not wasted on me that there in many ways you are making my argument for me when it comes to Elite Football Academies. You are saying that children can succeed and get great results in different environments and that they don't need to go to the ones that are "the best" to get the best results. I agree absolutely that this is also true when it comes to academia - there are clearly kids who go to Braidhurst High School and who emerge with 5 or more highers as the league tables show. 

[Monkey Tennis]

5 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

You used it as an excuse yesterday. 

Look it's not wasted on me that there in many ways you are making my argument for me when it comes to Elite Football Academies. You are saying that children can succeed and get great results in different environments and that they don't need to go to the ones that are "the best" to get the best results. I agree absolutely that this is also true when it comes to academia - there are clearly kids who go to Braidhurst High School and who emerge with 5 or more highers as the league tables show. 

Highlighting a factor that is widely recognised - following extensive research - to be significant, does not equate to making excuses at all.  Suggesting such a thing is somewhat silly in fact.

I've expressed no interest in, or view on, Elite Football Academies.  My objections have related solely to the conclusions about schools that you've leapt to on the basis of League Tables.  Whether in doing so, I'm either supporting or denting your wider argument is entirely incidental and is not my concern.

[woof!]

On 24/10/2019 at 15:52, Malky3 said:

And you think the only place a footballer can work on technique is at school or at a pro youth academy? 

Are you not ignoring the coaching and the skill building that got those players recruited in the first place? 

Using the examples provided earlier in the thread - Laura Muir and Chris Hoy did not get specialist coaching until they were OLDER than the age group I have said we should be targeting in football. 

 

Can’t agree, cycling doesn’t involve much skill for a kick off. That’s all about fitness. Footballers need to work on their technique from as young an age as possible and the more hours they spend on it the better. 

[Malky3]

41 minutes ago, woof! said:

Can’t agree, cycling doesn’t involve much skill for a kick off. That’s all about fitness. Footballers need to work on their technique from as young an age as possible and the more hours they spend on it the better. 

So how many hours a week do they spend on it at school? And how many hours a week do you think they should spend on it at school? 

[woof!]

7 hours ago, Malky3 said:

So how many hours a week do they spend on it at school? And how many hours a week do you think they should spend on it at school? 

The performance schools are there to ensure that time spent working on technique is greatly increased for promising players. It is calculated as an extra 200 hours of coaching  per year (presumably compared with a regular school). One must assume that involves a lot of ball work. The evidence is in the hugely improved technique (and results)  of the u17s and 19s. I’ve been watching youth teams for years. We’ve always been competitive but that was by playing strong runners with not much in the way of technique - those players inevitably falling short as they lacked the skill set for top level men’s football. Players are selected by skill on the ball now,  because they have it, and have the game awareness to apply it. 

[Burnie_man]

U17's beat Iceland 2-1 last night to qualify for the Elite stage qualification round (Liam Morrison with 2). Croatia on Monday in final game, that will be a test as the Croats are a good team and wont their two games very comfortably.

U17's and U19's both through to the Elite qualifying rounds and U21's top of their group.

Edited October 26, 2019 by Burnie_man

[geo87]

Those pesky performance schools

[Gordopolis]

Those pesky performance schools

Rip-em-up 'n' start again!

[RandomGuy.]

On the subject of Scotland and up coming youngsters, theres currently a 19yo central midfielder strolling through games weekly, who hasnt been acknowledged at any level in the National Team.

It's too late anyway, as Northern Ireland have already acted and hes become a regular for their U21s.

We could probably produce a few wunderkids yet theyd be ignored based on their club.

Edited October 26, 2019 by RandomGuy.

[Old Bing]

2 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

On the subject of Scotland and up coming youngsters, theres currently a 19yo central midfielder strolling through games weekly, who hasnt been acknowledged at any level in the National Team.

It's too late anyway, as Northern Ireland have already acted and hes become a regular for their U21s.

We could probably produce a few wunderkids yet theyd be ignored based on their club.

Who?

[DA Baracus]

How many of our under 19 international players make it to a full cap?

[Burnie_man]

On the subject of Scotland and up coming youngsters, theres currently a 19yo central midfielder strolling through games weekly, who hasnt been acknowledged at any level in the National Team.
It's too late anyway, as Northern Ireland have already acted and hes become a regular for their U21s.
We could probably produce a few wunderkids yet theyd be ignored based on their club.

What superstar have we missed out on?

[craigkillie]

18 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

On the subject of Scotland and up coming youngsters, theres currently a 19yo central midfielder strolling through games weekly, who hasnt been acknowledged at any level in the National Team.

It's too late anyway, as Northern Ireland have already acted and hes become a regular for their U21s.

We could probably produce a few wunderkids yet theyd be ignored based on their club.

Maybe if he was strolling a bit less then his team wouldn't be bottom of the league.

[RandomGuy.]

15 hours ago, BingMcCrosby said:

Who?

 

36 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

18 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

On the subject of Scotland and up coming youngsters, theres currently a 19yo central midfielder strolling through games weekly, who hasnt been acknowledged at any level in the National Team.
It's too late anyway, as Northern Ireland have already acted and hes become a regular for their U21s.
We could probably produce a few wunderkids yet theyd be ignored based on their club.

What superstar have we missed out on?

Ali McCann. A standout for Stranraer last season, and our best player this season. Believe hes still eligible for the U19s yet hasnt even been asked about.

A few weeks back he made his debut for NI U21s. Scotlands U21s had a Reading player on loan to Spains 3rd tier, a Celtic player on loan to County who's played about 3 senior games, and a Rangers player on loan to Ayr, instead. I've not even heard of half the U19 midfielders.

He might not make it, but it's just one of a number of players who get ignored for youth squads because of who they play for, rather than how good they are, as the Countries youth coaches seem unable to spot talent. He was a relative unknown last season yet somehow NI have spotted him while Scotland havent.

Edited October 27, 2019 by RandomGuy.

[Burnie_man]

Ali McCann. A standout for Stranraer last season, and our best player this season. Believe hes still eligible for the U19s yet hasnt even been asked about.
A few weeks back he made his debut for NI U21s. Scotlands U21s had a Reading player on loan to Spains 3rd tier, a Celtic player on loan to County who's played about 3 senior games, and a Rangers player on loan to Ayr, instead. I've not even heard of half the U19 midfielders.
He might not make it, but it's just one of a number of players who get ignored for youth squads because of who they play for, rather than how good they are, as the Countries youth coaches seem unable to spot talent. He was a relative unknown last season yet somehow NI have spotted him while Scotland havent.

Have you considered that maybe they have and don't think he's upto it?