Eddie Hitler Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 Regarding the regular refrain of “oooh Sturgeon has handled it okay but it’s just the same message as Boris!” I’m not Nicola Sturgeon’s biggest fan but I’m not really sure what folk expect, saving certain failures common to quite a lot countries might have been avoided (care home issues in particular). But regarding lockdown and easing of, in general of course every country’s message sounds the same. They’re opening up the same stuff, they have very similar institutions (educational, legal etc etc) and social habits etc. Lockdown relaxations are going to look pretty fuckin similar in most places. In fact, the only dispute to be had is about the pace of opening these things back up and very emphatically she’s trying to slow this a bit while Fannybaws can’t wait to push folk back whether it makes sense or not. Her strategy is as different as it can be really, and I say that as someone who thinks she’s too cautious a lot of the time. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartsOfficialMoaner Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 15 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said: Regarding the regular refrain of “oooh Sturgeon has handled it okay but it’s just the same message as Boris!” I’m not Nicola Sturgeon’s biggest fan but I’m not really sure what folk expect, saving certain failures common to quite a lot countries might have been avoided (care home issues in particular). But regarding lockdown and easing of, in general of course every country’s message sounds the same. They’re opening up the same stuff, they have very similar institutions (educational, legal etc etc) and social habits etc. Lockdown relaxations are going to look pretty fuckin similar in most places. In fact, the only dispute to be had is about the pace of opening these things back up and very emphatically she’s trying to slow this a bit while Fannybaws can’t wait to push folk back whether it makes sense or not. Her strategy is as different as it can be really, and I say that as someone who thinks she’s too cautious a lot of the time. Shite. NS is a politician not a doctor so al this stuff is not hers btu we sat and watched. this thing spread. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honest_Man#1 Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 9 minutes ago, HeartsOfficialMoaner said: Shite. NS is a politician not a doctor so al this stuff is not hers btu we sat and watched. this thing spread. ^^^ been on the lager beers tonight. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartsOfficialMoaner Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 3 minutes ago, Honest_Man#1 said: ^^^ been on the lager beers tonight. Truth.f. Whisky as well. Fun stuff. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.A.F.C Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 ^^^ been on the lager beers tonight. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bendan Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 6 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said: 14 hours ago, virginton said: Other than 4000 lives and counting as well as a decade's worth of lost prosperity paying for this shite. It never ceases to amaze that hindsight turns everyone into fucking experts. Does it really take hindsight to say that shutting down the economy for a few months might have serious consequences? Or that stopping various activities (without having a full lockdown) earlier in March might have been a good idea? The SPFL suspended its competition before the government banned large gatherings. If Neil Doncaster can see something's a good idea, if must be pretty f****** obvious. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizfit Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 I’ll admit I’m an SNP Voter, but sturgeon has handled this better than Johnson. Yes their is nikegate and the care home scandal, which should all be reviewed in any public enquiry. But her messages have been clear and concise. Compare that to Johnson’s Bluffing and stuttering. If the BBC were correct yesterday morning in showing our “R” number is .8 and our cases are dropping on a weekly basis then we are on the right path, however Johnson’s message has been confusing, almost deliberately so they can blame the public if they have a 2nd wave, which they may well do with their R number being over 1 in certain places. I would like to think that we up here will be okay in the long run, but we won’t know for a while. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
O'Kelly Isley III Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 I’ll admit I’m an SNP Voter, but sturgeon has handled this better than Johnson. Yes their is nikegate and the care home scandal, which should all be reviewed in any public enquiry. But her messages have been clear and concise. Compare that to Johnson’s Bluffing and stuttering. If the BBC were correct yesterday morning in showing our “R” number is .8 and our cases are dropping on a weekly basis then we are on the right path, however Johnson’s message has been confusing, almost deliberately so they can blame the public if they have a 2nd wave, which they may well do with their R number being over 1 in certain places. I would like to think that we up here will be okay in the long run, but we won’t know for a while. Contrast the headlines in today's Observer and Sunday Times and you will see the conflicting positions in play right now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 2 hours ago, bendan said: Does it really take hindsight to say that shutting down the economy for a few months might have serious consequences? Or that stopping various activities (without having a full lockdown) earlier in March might have been a good idea? The SPFL suspended its competition before the government banned large gatherings. If Neil Doncaster can see something's a good idea, if must be pretty f****** obvious. Where you suggesting any of these things on here at that time? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 Where you suggesting any of these things on here at that time?Exactly the point I've been making - where were all these hindsight geniuses in mid-March?At that point the concern was about the NHS not coping with the strain - a lot of focus has been on care homes - with fingers pointed at the Scottish Government - can anyone tell me why there isn't the same level of finger pointing regards care home bosses possible negligence? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 2 hours ago, bendan said: Does it really take hindsight to say that shutting down the economy for a few months might have serious consequences? Or that stopping various activities (without having a full lockdown) earlier in March might have been a good idea? The SPFL suspended its competition before the government banned large gatherings. If Neil Doncaster can see something's a good idea, if must be pretty f****** obvious. Of course not, but all the available modelling suggested that doing nothing would end up killing between 250 and 350k people while overwhelming the health service. Presumably that would've come with some pretty dire economic consequences as well. There was a fleeting chance, probably very early March where a total, draconian lockdown might have stomped out the virus for good. Once that was missed, everything else becomes a matter or managing the curve. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 4 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said: Exactly the point I've been making - where were all these hindsight geniuses in mid-March? At that point the concern was about the NHS not coping with the strain - a lot of focus has been on care homes - with fingers pointed at the Scottish Government - can anyone tell me why there isn't the same level of finger pointing regards care home bosses possible negligence? Don’t worry, at some point today I am sure bendan, Todd and the Virgin will be on here reminding us of their powers of foresight with reference to appropriate posts from March. It will be interesting reading. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd_is_God Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 10 hours ago, renton said: My guess is that the Scot Gov approach is intrinsically cautious as opposed to opportunistic fence sitting, waiting on England. The fact is that the lower the number of infections you have, the harder it is for the R number to get back above one for any given tranche of measures designed to ease lockdown. You could well argue that stamping down the infection rate until it is non existent before pursuing lockdown exit is the optimal solution from a pure health point of view. I think some of the other small nations did so before full exit. It may also be the case that with a permanently open border with England, currently far more relaxed in terms of lockdown, and showing way more per capita infections still, that there is extra burden placed on test and protect. Starting from the minimal base of infections is surely prudent then. If the Scottish Government plan is to eradicate the virus completely before letting anything ease then they should say so and everybody would then be on the same page. As far as I can gather that isn't what the plan is. You make a point about England. So close the border. Make a meaningful decision. Why should we up here remain restricted longer because of potentially rash decisions down South? Scottish businesses and employees continue to lose more / earn less the longer they can't open or work. That isn't doing what is best for Scotland, as NS frequently stresses she will do. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 Don’t worry, at some point today I am sure bendan, Todd and the Virgin will be on here reminding us of their powers of foresight with reference to appropriate posts from March. It will be interesting reading. It was never entirely a scientific decision - economics were always going to play a part. The cost of lockdown measures is going to be anywhere up to £550 billion for the UK. If we had gone earlier then I don't think they would be able to sustain the economic measures taken. Without the economic powers to do so there was absolutely no point even considering a Scotland only lockdown at that point. Decisions now are different because the economic policies such as furlough are already on place till the end of July (with partial furloughing beyond this) . No - I don't believe in a free ride for the Scottish Government but there's so much nonsense being written. The but look at what X country did argument is misleading - just because a country has a similar population size does not mean that the exact same one-fits-all approach can be used. Demographics will be different from country to country, not to mention that the measures of infections and deaths between countries is like comparing apples with pears. I believe that Sturgeon and the Scottish government were between a rock and a hard place regards this - national emergency planning is a UK responsibility - yes there is a role for the Scottish government but the reality is that that agenda is driven by the UK government. Condemned if she did and condemned if she didn't - as shown by Britnat zoomers like Jackson Carlaw criticising over the extension of the lockdown. I've no problem any government being held to account - but it must be based on facts and no notional what-ifs. There is also a good reason why Scottish deaths are not far off the more urbanised parts of England - we have a higher proportion of people with underlying health issues. I also have doubts that an earlier lockdown would have made that much difference in the Care Sector - lots of crocodile tears and whining from the bosses of Care Home firms who seem to accept very little responsibility for their own actions and their long-running poor treatment of their own staff. It's a complex issue and there isn't a magic bullet solution. Lockdown is also very dependent on cooperation of the populace - in some countries (I'm thinking of the Nordic countries) there is definitely a more cultural tendency to do this - we on the other hand seem to have more of the "I'll do what I want" attitudes and those who try to ignore the rules - wasn't it 600+ parties broken up alone in Manchester in one weekend? Some countries have gone down the more draconian route - something that I perhaps think should have happened - but I also recognise there is a strong tradition in this country of not limiting civil liberties - it is always a fine balancing act. I think it is right once this is all over that there is a proper evaluation - not just to stick the boot in - but also to learn from this and prepare better for the future. One of things that seems to be clear is that the UK was severely under-prepared for any type of pandemic - not just coronavirus. That being said, I'm still not sure even the best of preparations would have readied us for this - this is unlike anything we've faced in a long long time. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 5 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said: Exactly the point I've been making - where were all these hindsight geniuses in mid-March? At that point the concern was about the NHS not coping with the strain - a lot of focus has been on care homes - with fingers pointed at the Scottish Government - can anyone tell me why there isn't the same level of finger pointing regards care home bosses possible negligence? Ultimately it is impossible to track how the infections entered care homes. You can point to sending folk back from hospital untested, but it's as likely that a good number of vectors were established via staff and visitors. It seems unlikely we'll ever be able to weight the various vectors by severity. Two things to bear in mind: I dont think proportionately that our care home infection rates are particular outliers, internationally. Which would suggest that either visitors and staff vectors were quite dominant, or that everyone had the same idea about bed blockers. Which brings me onto the second point: with hindsight our knowledge of the impact of asymptomatic infection transfer would make such patient transfers seem foolhardy, but through January and February certainly, there was an assumption that you were only infectious once you were showing symptoms. That makes a big difference to the maths involved with transferring people out of hospital... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 1 minute ago, DeeTillEhDeh said: It was never entirely a scientific decision - economics were always going to play a part. The cost of lockdown measures is going to be anywhere up to £550 billion for the UK. If we had gone earlier then I don't think they would be able to sustain the economic measures taken. Without the economic powers to do so there was absolutely no point even considering a Scotland only lockdown at that point. Decisions now are different because the economic policies such as furlough are already on place till the end of July (with partial furloughing beyond this) . No - I don't believe in a free ride for the Scottish Government but there's so much nonsense being written. The but look at what X country did argument is misleading - just because a country has a similar population size does not mean that the exact same one-fits-all approach can be used. Demographics will be different from country to country, not to mention that the measures of infections and deaths between countries is like comparing apples with pears. I believe that Sturgeon and the Scottish government were between a rock and a hard place regards this - national emergency planning is a UK responsibility - yes there is a role for the Scottish government but the reality is that that agenda is driven by the UK government. Condemned if she did and condemned if she didn't - as shown by Britnat zoomers like Jackson Carlaw criticising over the extension of the lockdown. I've no problem any government being held to account - but it must be based on facts and no notional what-ifs. There is also a good reason why Scottish deaths are not far off the more urbanised parts of England - we have a higher proportion of people with underlying health issues. I also have doubts that an earlier lockdown would have made that much difference in the Care Sector - lots of crocodile tears and whining from the bosses of Care Home firms who seem to accept very little responsibility for their own actions and their long-running poor treatment of their own staff. It's a complex issue and there isn't a magic bullet solution. Lockdown is also very dependent on cooperation of the populace - in some countries (I'm thinking of the Nordic countries) there is definitely a more cultural tendency to do this - we on the other hand seem to have more of the "I'll do what I want" attitudes and those who try to ignore the rules - wasn't it 600+ parties broken up alone in Manchester in one weekend? Some countries have gone down the more draconian route - something that I perhaps think should have happened - but I also recognise there is a strong tradition in this country of not limiting civil liberties - it is always a fine balancing act. I think it is tight once this is all over that there is a proper evaluation - not just to stick the boot in - but also to learn from this and prepare better for the future. One of things that seems to be clear is that the UK was severely under-prepared for any type of pandemic - not just coronavirus. That being said, I'm still not sure even the best if preparations would have readied us for this - this is unlike anything we've faced in a long long time. As to your last paragraph I disagree. For me one of the most significant stories during this was the ST exposé about Cygnus. Pandemic planning was wilfully and deliberately sidelined despite the official policy of a pandemic still being the single biggest threat to the country. Had the likely recommendations of Cygnus been followed we would have been far better prepared to deal with the crisis. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 5 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said: If the Scottish Government plan is to eradicate the virus completely before letting anything ease then they should say so and everybody would then be on the same page. As far as I can gather that isn't what the plan is. You make a point about England. So close the border. Make a meaningful decision. Why should we up here remain restricted longer because of potentially rash decisions down South? Scottish businesses and employees continue to lose more / earn less the longer they can't open or work. That isn't doing what is best for Scotland, as NS frequently stresses she will do. Union dividend in action. I don't think we have the legal power to close the border. I don't think that compliance to Scot Gov lockdown measures amongst the unionist portion of the populace would be enhanced by such an inflammatory action which would be therefore self defeating. The economic issues are baked in at this point. It matters less which day or week we open back up now and more that we can drive demand back up as quickly as possible once we have opened back up. Presumably, for the hospitality and retail sectors, certainly, that demand will only return alongside public confidence that they can visit establishments without getting the deadly Covids from someone looming to close to them. In that respect there is still something to be gained from 1. Driving the base infection rate as low as possible and 2. Gaining confidence in the operation of Test and Protect. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd_is_God Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 20 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: Don’t worry, at some point today I am sure bendan, Todd and the Virgin will be on here reminding us of their powers of foresight with reference to appropriate posts from March. It will be interesting reading. About the football season starting in August? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 2 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said: About the football season starting in August? Be deliberately obtuse if you want. Other posters will see it for what it is. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 As to your last paragraph I disagree. For me one of the most significant stories during this was the ST exposé about Cygnus. Pandemic planning was wilfully and deliberately sidelined despite the official policy of a pandemic still being the single biggest threat to the country. Had the likely recommendations of Cygnus been followed we would have been far better prepared to deal with the crisis. Not implementing Cygnus is a serious negligence - I am still not convinced that even if its recommendations had been implemented that there would have been a fundamentally different result - it focused on pandemic influenza - something nowhere on the scale of this disease. I think there may be more systemic longer running issues with the health and care system that have made matters worse: * Over a decade of underfunding* Unmanageable workloads, leading to stress and burnout and a recruitment/retention crisis* Culture of blame that discourages openness and learning* Lack of investment and training in new technology*Lack of clarity surrounding transformation models, such Accountable care systems* An ageing population and steep increase in demand for health services And that's just the NHS - don't start me on private care for the elderly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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