Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[Thorongil]

2 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

I was reading something about this yesterday where experts were breathing a sigh of relief that the end of furlough looks like it won't cause mass job losses becuse we're no longer sitting at 11 million on furlough.

My first thought was "yeah but we're still sitting on more than 2 million though and that's well over a year now".

I still think we could be looking at mass job losses in the next couple of months - mostly from small businesses.

Recruitment is currently exploding in all sectors.

[Left Back]

2 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

I was reading something about this yesterday where experts were breathing a sigh of relief that the end of furlough looks like it won't cause mass job losses becuse we're no longer sitting at 11 million on furlough.

My first thought was "yeah but we're still sitting on more than 2 million though and that's well over a year now".

I still think we could be looking at mass job losses in the next couple of months - mostly from small businesses.

I suspect you’re right that there will be job losses.  Nothing like the scale that has been predicted by the “experts” over the last year.  Unemployment to peak at around 5.5-6% next year I think I read.  Slightly over half that experienced during the Thatcher years in the 80’s (close to 10% I think).  It won’t be a bed of roses, especially for those on the dole but nothing like the catastrophe that was being proclaimed.

 I’d also be surprised if furlough doesn’t remain for targeted industries (like aviation). seeing as they’re being restricted from operating and certainly wouldn’t be deemed as unviable.

[Left Back]

12 minutes ago, Wee Bully said:

I hope you are discussing this is good faith, so I’ll continue as if you are.

”Inmate” has 2 connotations - either a prisoner, or someone in a mental institution.  Neither is a positive one.

You’ve also ignored the point of the impact language has on the Prison Officer.  

“A society should be judged not by how it treats its outstanding citizens but by how it treats its criminals.” ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky

You do realise Dostoyevsky was a convicted criminal who served time in a pretty rough prison regime in a totally different era so might not be the most impartial to be advising on this subject?

[Wee Bully]

19 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

I've not ignored anything. We've not discussed it at all.

I couldn't care less what Dostoyevsky or any other novelist thinks about anything to be fair.

And I certainly don't care what a criminal thinks about what he is called by the rest of society.

Have a problem with being called a crook, a criminal or an inmate? Here's a radical thought - don't commit crime.

To get into prison you need to have committed a pretty serious crime against another human being.

Are you SERIOUSLY telling me that it's reasonable for that person to be bleating over the name people call them?

Come back to me when you want to talk about the victims of crime in all of this because you and a few others seem to care more about the criminal than the victim. I have a hunch why that might be.

I thought that was where you were coming from:

1. I mentioned the impact on language on the prison officer in at least 2 of my earlier posts that you responded to.

2. We lock people up who have committed crimes.  That is the punishment.

3. I’m not sure how the person is referred to in prison impacts on the victim.  Surely the only person it impacts is the prisoner, and they are the one we are trying to rehabilitate? We don’t punish in any other way than the removal of liberty. 

4. My (limited) experience is that there are very few bad people in the criminal justice system, and a lot of sad people.  The Police have a very difficult job, as do prosecutors, prison officers, judges and defence solicitors.  Strangely, everyone is actually trying to help

5. To get into prison, you do not have to have committed a pretty serious crime.  Shoplift, don’t pay the fine, and you could end up there.  Mostly for 5 nights, but sometimes for much more.  btw, if you get 5 nights, hand yourself in on a Thursday.  Also, there are a pile of people on remand who may be completely innocent. 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Wee Bully

[Wee Bully]

10 minutes ago, Left Back said:

You do realise Dostoyevsky was a convicted criminal who served time in a pretty rough prison regime in a totally different era so might not be the most impartial to be advising on this subject?

And?

A similar view would be to judge a society by how it treats its poorest members.  For instance, why do we have thousands using food banks in the 5th (?) richest country in the world.

How we treat the most vulnerable is, in my view, what really tells us how civilised we are.

[No_Problemo]

17 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

I've not ignored anything. We've not discussed it at all.

I couldn't care less what Dostoyevsky or any other novelist thinks about anything to be fair.

And I certainly don't care what a criminal thinks about what he is called by the rest of society.

Have a problem with being called a crook, a criminal or an inmate? Here's a radical thought - don't commit crime.

To get into prison you need to have committed a pretty serious crime against another human being.

Are you SERIOUSLY telling me that it's reasonable for that person to be bleating over the name people call them?

I think I'll end my involvement in this chat right here because you are clearly trying to boil my piss.

Come back to me when you want to talk about the victims of crime in all of this because you and a few others seem to care more about the criminal than the victim. I have a hunch why that might be.

You definitely don’t need to have committed a serious crime against another human being to get into prison. 
 

Generaly speaking, the vast majority of criminals have been victims at some point in their lives - so why don’t we talk about those victims, or is it only certain victims!

[Left Back]

5 minutes ago, Wee Bully said:

And?

A similar view would be to judge a society by how it treats its poorest members.  For instance, why do we have thousands using food banks in the 5th (?) richest country in the world.

How we treat the most vulnerable is, in my view, what really tells us how civilised we are.

Criminals, the poor and the vulnerable are 3 completely different cohorts in society.  You seem to want to treat them all equally as victims.

[Wee Bully]

Just now, Left Back said:

Criminals, the poor and the vulnerable are 3 completely different cohorts in society.  You seem to want to treat them all equally as victims.

My experience is that criminals are overwhelmingly both poor and vulnerable. And most often victims as well.

As I said, far more often sad than bad.

The bad do exist, and for some, we should look them up and throw away the key.  But for most, that’s not the case, and treating them badly in prison is more likely to make them reoffend, and continue the cycle.  

The key is about breaking the cycle, and if calling them “clients” helps any single one of them to do so, it’s worth it. 

[Left Back]

5 minutes ago, Wee Bully said:

My experience is that criminals are overwhelmingly both poor and vulnerable. And most often victims as well.

As I said, far more often sad than bad.

The bad do exist, and for some, we should look them up and throw away the key.  But for most, that’s not the case, and treating them badly in prison is more likely to make them reoffend, and continue the cycle.  

The key is about breaking the cycle, and if calling them “clients” helps any single one of them to do so, it’s worth it. 

What if calling them clients helps a single one of them to think “this is a doddle.  Bunch of soft touches this lot” and views it as no deterrent.  Two sides to every argument.

[Wee Bully]

1 minute ago, Left Back said:

What if calling them clients helps a single one of them to think “this is a doddle.  Bunch of soft touches this lot” and views it as no deterrent.  Two sides to every argument.

Have you ever been in prison?

If you had, in any capacity, you would know it’s not a doddle.  

We have people on this thread talking about the mental anguish on someone who is in 10 day quarantine, when they can get out 2 or 3 times.  Can you imagine what prison does?

[Left Back]

9 minutes ago, Wee Bully said:

Have you ever been in prison?

If you had, in any capacity, you would know it’s not a doddle.  

We have people on this thread talking about the mental anguish on someone who is in 10 day quarantine, when they can get out 2 or 3 times.  Can you imagine what prison does?

^^^ done more porridge than the 3 bears.  Explains it.

[Elixir]

Just incase you needed more confirmation that it's over.

 

[Wee Bully]

1 minute ago, Left Back said:

^^^ done more porridge than the 3 bears.  Explains it.

Great come back.  I’ve been in most prisons in Scotland (25 years ago) in a professional capacity.  Very short lived, as there is no money in criminal defence…

Every single prison scared me.  From the YOI’s where everyone is trying to be the daddy, to the Bar-L which is so much better in a lot of ways (people generally just trying to do their time) but the way the door slammed sends shivers down your spine, to Corton Vale which is the saddest single building I’ve ever been in. 

All filled with people.  Not criminals, but people.  

But anyway, please tell us all about how it is a “doddle”

[Todd_is_God]

2 minutes ago, Elixir said:

Just incase you needed more confirmation that it's over.

 

 

[Left Back]

1 minute ago, Wee Bully said:

Great come back.  I’ve been in most prisons in Scotland (25 years ago) in a professional capacity.  Very short lived, as there is no money in criminal defence…

Every single prison scared me.  From the YOI’s where everyone is trying to be the daddy, to the Bar-L which is so much better in a lot of ways (people generally just trying to do their time) but the way the door slammed sends shivers down your spine, to Corton Vale which is the saddest single building I’ve ever been in. 

All filled with people.  Not criminals, but people.  

But anyway, please tell us all about how it is a “doddle”

Point me to where I claimed it was a doddle.  I asked a question to counter what you stated.  You’re the one making factual claims here.

I have been inside a prison btw.  I used to play 5 a side football in the gym in Wormwood Scrubs on a weekly basis many years ago when the company I worked for was doing some building/renovation work in there.

Anyway this is getting completely off topic on this thread.

[No_Problemo]

41 minutes ago, Left Back said:

Criminals, the poor and the vulnerable are 3 completely different cohorts in society.  You seem to want to treat them all equally as victims.

In the vast vast majority the three are completely interchangeable - it is a fact. 

[Wee Bully]

1 minute ago, Left Back said:

Point me to where I claimed it was a doddle.  I asked a question to counter what you stated.  You’re the one making factual claims here.

I have been inside a prison btw.  I used to play 5 a side football in the gym in Wormwood Scrubs on a weekly basis many years ago when the company I worked for was doing some building/renovation work in there.

Anyway this is getting completely off topic on this thread.

Fair enough - I’ll stop responding to your points.  

I see where you are coming from. Enjoy your night 

[Rob1885]

Great come back.  I’ve been in most prisons in Scotland (25 years ago) in a professional capacity.  Very short lived, as there is no money in criminal defence…
Every single prison scared me.  From the YOI’s where everyone is trying to be the daddy, to the Bar-L which is so much better in a lot of ways (people generally just trying to do their time) but the way the door slammed sends shivers down your spine, to Corton Vale which is the saddest single building I’ve ever been in. 
All filled with people.  Not criminals, but people.  
But anyway, please tell us all about how it is a “doddle”

I've seen more bird than bill oddie.

[Detournement]

19 minutes ago, No_Problemo said:

In the vast vast majority the three are completely interchangeable - it is a fact. 

The vast majority of poor people aren't criminals.

[Wee Bully]

13 minutes ago, Detournement said:

The vast majority of poor people aren't criminals.

But as i said, my experience is that criminals are overwhelmingly both poor and vulnerable. And most often victims as well.

Do you disagree with that?