League Reconstruction 20/21 season

[DeeTillEhDeh]

More mewling shite from Budge - it's utterly embarrassing - you'd think that Hearts were the only team being hard done by.

 

Half the fucking teams in the leagues are hard done by this - but shite happens - get over yourselves.

 

 

[Ric]

In many ways I actually have sympathy for (some) Hearts fans. Budge has come to this with a "pram emptied, toys everywhere" approach. If she had shown contrition, rolled back on her previous comments about the league structure needing to be reduced and accepted that they are where they are because of her failings and put forward a solution that doesn't look like it's been designed purely to by her time so her legacy isn't tarnished then I feel she, and Hearts, would have garnered a lot more support.

Metaphorically banging her hand on the table and giving the "we're too big to go down, it'll cost us too much, and if any of you b*****ds send us down we'll sent the lawyers to your doors" is possibly one of the worst "successful business woman" approaches I have ever seen.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Ric

[Guest JTS98]

2 minutes ago, Ric said:

In many ways I actually have sympathy for (some) Hearts fans. Budge has come to this with a "pram emptied, toys everywhere" approach. Is she had shown contrition, rolled back on her previous comments about the league structure needing to be reduced and accepted that they are where they are because of her failings and put forward a solution that doesn't look like it's been designed purely to by her time so her legacy isn't tarnished then I feel she, and Hearts, would have garnered a lot more support.

Metaphorically banging her hand on the table and giving the "we're too big to go down, it'll cost us too much, and if any of you b*****ds send us down we'll sent the lawyers to your doors" is possibly one of the worst "successful business woman" approaches I have ever seen.

So, you won't answer the question then?

Ok.

I venture the view that this gentleman does not believe St Mirren would accept relegation in this situation, yet is criticising another club for not doing so.

Edited May 16, 2020 by JTS98

[Alan Stubbs]

46 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

It's not though, is it?

It's being discussed because deep down people know that the idea of relegating anyone on an incomplete season isn't quite right.

You'd be making exactly the same point if this had happened this time last year with St Mirren rooted to the bottom of the league after 30 games.

Who are the 'people' you refer to? As far as I can tell, Hearts have been pumping out 10,000 words worth of moaning over the last few weeks and the rest of the league have told them to ram it at every opportunity. 

37 minutes ago, Coventry Saint said:

f**k me dead he's still going

This is what 'serenity' looks like apparently 

[Ric]

4 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Do you believe the St Mirren board would just sit and accept relegation quietly in this scenario?

I have already given you an answer. It's not my fault it's an answer you don't find acceptable.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Ric

[Sergeant Wilson]

1 minute ago, Ric said:

In many ways I actually have sympathy for (some) Hearts fans. Budge has come to this with a "pram emptied, toys everywhere" approach. Is she had shown contrition, rolled back on her previous comments about the league structure needing to be reduced and accepted that they are where they are because of her failings and put forward a solution that doesn't look like it's been designed purely to by her time so her legacy isn't tarnished then I feel she, and Hearts, would have garnered a lot more support.

Metaphorically banging her hand on the table and giving the "we're too big to go down, it'll cost us too much, and if any of you b*****ds send us down we'll sent the lawyers to your doors" is possibly one of the worst "successful business woman" approaches I have ever seen.

Let her get a lawyer, it might be Leslie Deans, I'd pay to watch him in court.

[Guest JTS98]

1 minute ago, Ric said:

I have already given you an answer. It's not my fault it's an answer you don't find acceptable.

Once again, we can only take from this guy's responses that he is criticising one club for not accepting relegation, while accepting that his own club would take the same view in the same situation.

Glad we got to the bottom of that.

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

3 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Again, sir, I'd suggest that if you believe discussion cannot be had by anyone other than people frothing at the mouth, that is your problem.

This is a forum. Forums are for discussion.

Join in or be quiet.

That was certainly your attitude during your little tantrum the other day. Forums are for discussion, yes, but when someone deserves nothing but contempt they'll get it I'm afraid. Behave like less of a smug concern trolling melt and folk might stop ripping the piss is suspect 

[Coventry Saint]

5 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

It's not a false comparison at all. I'm asking you for a direct comparison.

Do you believe the St Mirren board would just sit and accept relegation quietly in this scenario?

What form that takes is up for debate, but you seem to just be dodging the question.

You've repeatedly refused to answer a yes/no question.

We wouldn't, but it goes both ways and we've covered this a million fucking times: there's absolutely ZERO chance Hearts would be pushing for reconstruction if you weren't bottom, because you don't care about fairness you care about not going down.

#serenity

[Lebowski]

Hearts stand to lose 3m according to Budge. Your turnover was around 15m. That's 20%, not 30%. It's also not coincidentally the exact same amount you'd have lost if relegated if Hearts had finished bottom as results suggested they would.

What Hearts are asking for is other clubs to be disadvantaged to stop them being so. All about fairness and integrity.

It's shite that sides will suffer. But the ones who are in that position would have suffered the exact same if they'd finished in the position they were in. Hearts are saying that other clubs who weren't as utterly shite as them should take those consequences.

If it's a financial issue stopping this I'd suggest that Hearts pay 3m into a hardship fund for the clubs who are being punished for them being shite. Partick, Brechin and Stranraer can chip in too with the money they're not losing.

I don't disagree.
My point all along has been that the clubs should share the pain around instead of certain clubs having to carry the can. Hearts stand to lose 30% of their annual revenue.
What's happening at the moment is that the other clubs are voting to protect themselves and let a small number of clubs take 100% of the hit. I think that's wrong. I think the football community should share the burden.

[PauloPerth]

18 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

I can't quote you because of the way you've replied to my post, but a couple of obvious things stick out.

1) As a football fan, how do you feel about the general concept of Club X being relegated based on a season that was never finished and that was curtailed at relatively short notice? Are you genuinely absolutely cool with that?

2) I think you've chosen to misinterpret my use of the word arbitrary. It makes perfect sense in as much as that this could have happened at any other week this season or in any other season. This is 'arbitrary'. In a season that was meant to have 38 games we are now saying that 30 is fine.

3) Yes, it's true that there was not a global pandemic in those seasons. But that's exactly my point. Nobody has ever suggested saving Hearts from relegation in any other season. The fact it is even being discussed this year is because of the exceptional circumstances. I find it hard to believe that if St Mirren, or Accies, or Motherwell, or St Johnstone were bottom of the league you wouldn't be able to see the unfairness of relegation and all that entails being based on a season that was shortened.

Its a far from ideal situation, and its harsh on all clubs that still had something to play for, be it promotion, relegation or a cup, but it looks like the season cannot and will not be completed.  So a solution has to be found.

I would have listened to a proposal for a 16 team top league. That way, nobody is relegated and the top four from the championship come up. Hearts' 14 team top league proposals are conveniently ignoring the fact that Ayr and Dundee have a pretty similar chance of promotion as Inverness.

Even in a 16 team solution, Dunfermline in 5th place could then argue that they still had a chance of making the play offs with 8 matches still to play.  And if we go to an 18 team top league, Arbroath would sneak in on goal difference ahead of Morton. 

So do you understand that wherever the line is drawn in the sand, some clubs are going to be dealt a poor outcome?  There is no way around that fact.

The issue I have with the hearts standpoint is that every single argument from Ann Budge, or you from what I can ascertain, is that it shouldn't be Hearts that suffer, it should be someone else.  

And you can't see that.

 

[Lofarl]

So who would come up?  Presumably Inverness.  Bit shite that.  Dundee and Ayr are only 4 and 5 points off second.  If it’s unfair to relegate a team 4 points adrift it’s just as unfair to not promote ones too.  Would they go to court?  Dundee are no strangers to them I’d imagine.

[Ric]

Just now, Coventry Saint said:

We wouldn't, but it goes both ways and we've covered this a million fucking times: there's absolutely ZERO chance Hearts would be pushing for reconstruction if you weren't bottom, because you don't care about fairness you care about not going down.

#serenity

We simply wouldn't demand a temporary league reconstruction and/or threaten legal action. We've both been supporters of our club long enough to know we'd complain for a while but ultimately get punted into the championship.

[Guest JTS98]

2 minutes ago, Coventry Saint said:

We wouldn't, but it goes both ways and we've covered this a million fucking times: there's absolutely ZERO chance Hearts would be pushing for reconstruction if you weren't bottom, because you don't care about fairness you care about not going down.

#serenity

Ok, so let's look at that as a position.

You're saying basically that your club would be making the same argument in the same situation, but you're deciding to f**k Club X because we'd do what you're doing in this situation.

Do you see the problem with that?

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Its a far from ideal situation, and its harsh on all clubs that still had something to play for, be it promotion, relegation or a cup, but it looks like the season cannot and will not be completed.  So a solution has to be found.
I would have listened to a proposal for a 16 team top league. That way, nobody is relegated and the top four from the championship come up. Hearts' 14 team top league proposals are conveniently ignoring the fact that Ayr and Dundee have a pretty similar chance of promotion as Inverness.
Even in a 16 team solution, Dunfermline in 5th place could then argue that they still had a chance of making the play offs with 8 matches still to play.  And if we go to an 18 team top league, Arbroath would sneak in on goal difference ahead of Morton. 
So do you understand that wherever the line is drawn in the sand, some clubs are going to be dealt a poor outcome?  There is no way around that fact.
The issue I have with the hearts standpoint is that every single argument from Ann Budge, or you from what I can ascertain, is that it shouldn't be Hearts that suffer, it should be someone else.  
And you can't see that.
 

This in fucking spades.

[Ric]

3 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Once again, we can only take from this guy's responses that he is criticising one club for not accepting relegation, while accepting that his own club would take the same view in the same situation.

Stop misrepresenting my argument, it is both intellectually bankrupt and quite childish to do so.

[djchapsticks]

As calm as a Hindu cow.

[Ric]

1 minute ago, JTS98 said:

Ok, so let's look at that as a position.

You're saying basically that your club would be making the same argument in the same situation, but you're deciding to f**k Club X because we'd do what you're doing in this situation.

Do you see the problem with that?

Wrong. Why is it you quote people, yet don't bother to actually read what they said?

Why is it, in a league reconstruction thread do you continue to ignore the fact we are talking about league reconstruction?

The more mischievous amongst us may even suggest you are intentionally doing both of these things.

[Guest JTS98]

3 minutes ago, PauloPerth said:

The issue I have with the hearts standpoint is that every single argument from Ann Budge, or you from what I can ascertain, is that it shouldn't be Hearts that suffer, it should be someone else.  

And you can't see that.

 

I've said from the off that the pain should be shared.

I think your 16 team league suggestion is one that suits clubs like St Johnstone very nicely. It gives them safety from the relegation that you know is coming your way one day in the current format. I can see why you'd favour it.

The point is that all clubs argue from a position of self-interest, of course. What is absolutely galling here is to see people stick up for St Mirren, Hamilton, Ross COunty, whose position is 'We were right in the shit and would like to be out of it, cheers'. And the supporters of smaller clubs are more amenable to that suggestion because the team in 12th is Hearts.

If Accies were bottom, St Mirren would be being called out for the absolute charlatans that they are.

[Coventry Saint]

5 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Ok, so let's look at that as a position.

You're saying basically that your club would be making the same argument in the same situation, but you're deciding to f**k Club X because we'd do what you're doing in this situation.

Do you see the problem with that?

No, because:

1) I'm acknowledging the hypothetical hypocrisy, which you are accusing others of while failing to do yourself.

2) we've earned the right to take this position by not being rock bottom of the league when play was stopped. There is still a strong element of meritocracy running through this issue.

3) if we were club X then we'd be getting bombed out of here so hard regardless of the moaning we would be doing.

So no, I don't see a problem with it. Get the f**k down.

 

Once again, and for the millionth time: you don't give a f**k about actual fairness, you care because it's happening to Hearts.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Coventry Saint