D.A.F.C Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Mate, I know you're genuinely trying to engage with the issue. And it's important to find ways of countering structural racism more than anything else, of course. But all of the things you have mentioned have been attempted, for decades. They haven't worked because many, if not most, institutions in the USA are a part of structural racism. So the argument is in order to counter this, you have to remake those institutions (by, for example, defunding and reforming the police). People don't want to be "offered a way out" of their community, they want their community to have services, dignity and to be safe. At the moment, much of the government does not do this. And I'm sorry, but saying BLM are immune from criticism is nonsense. They are frequently criticised across the media by people from many different sides. I didn't mean offer them a way out as in tokenism I mean long term changes and as you say if that means changing entire structures then do it. Get educated, vote, become peaceful activists and move away from crime. Offering people a way out isn't effective and thats what I believe diversity is doing. Change from the top, maybe dont just remove the police entirely though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Moonster Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 2 hours ago, D.A.F.C said: I dunno, maybe try and help communities out of poverty through education and removing drugs and gang culture? It's impossible to remove drugs from the world. A start would be legalising, regulating and controlling drugs, but most people don't like that idea because they have a fear of everyone becoming smackheads. Most gangs have territory to punt drugs, if you take the drug punting away from them then they don't have any need to hold territory or fight other gangs over it. It also allows the government to control the potency of any drug and lets them put the raised tax monies back into the economy. Alternatively though we could decriminalise all drugs. That would be a start, especially for communities in America where I imagine a lot of these people end up in jail for possession charges. If you don't make someone a criminal then it leaves their life opportunities open. The downside is drug gangs will still exist and we still wouldn't have any control over the drugs being used, but at least it stops people getting criminal records and ruining their lives because of that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpetmonster Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Genuine Hibs Fan said: Absolutely gobsmacked that no one has thought to try this so far. Diverting money from the insanely bloated US police budgets into community resources, mental healthcare etc, is exactly what ‘defund the police’ is referring to. Nobody wishes the police removed entirely. They would like them to stop LARPing as military and they would also like them not to be the sole point of contact for anyone who is finding themselves in a spot of trouble as there are likely more constructive solutions to such problems than that person being jailed. To be fair, the second point is true in the UK also, however the Conservatives have traditionally chosen to plow public funds into tax breaks for c***s rather than largesse for the fuzz. Edited July 8, 2020 by carpetmonster 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmic Joe Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 4 hours ago, D.A.F.C said: I'm not entirely convinced that the blm movement was created solely for racism issues Out of interest, what do you think the BLM movement was created for? It pretty obviously started as a reaction to the disproportionate numbers of unarmed black individuals being killed by white policemen. Unless you have another explanation... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genuine Hibs Fan Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 17 minutes ago, carpetmonster said: Diverting money from the insanely bloated US police budgets into community resources, mental healthcare etc, is exactly what ‘defund the police’ is referring to. Nobody wishes the police removed entirely. They would like them to stop LARPing as military and they would also like them not to be the sole point of contact for anyone who is finding themselves in a spot of trouble as there are likely more constructive solutions to such problems than that person being jailed. To be fair, the second point is true in the UK also, however the Conservatives have traditionally chosen to plow public funds into tax breaks for c***s rather than largesse for the fuzz. I wasn't being serious mate 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpetmonster Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Genuine Hibs Fan said: I wasn't being serious mate I know mate, sorry, was response to the guy you were quoting. Not enough caffeine intooken at point of writing, should intooken be a word. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Waldo Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 8 hours ago, WhiteRoseKillie said: No, if such as yourself look at that and don't see a problem with it, we are well and truly gubbed. I did not say I do not have a problem with it, I said I do not believe it is hate speech. You can go to jail for hate speech. Put this in front of a judge and see what happens? I am pretty sure you'll be dissapointed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.A.F.C Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Out of interest, what do you think the BLM movement was created for? It pretty obviously started as a reaction to the disproportionate numbers of unarmed black individuals being killed by white policemen. Unless you have another explanation... https://www.influencewatch.org/movement/black-lives-matter/ Quite a few people have questioned their origins and funding structure as marxist in nature and possibly have their own agenda, using blm and protesters as a bit of a front for disruption and political gain.I'd hope that its not true and it could be a right wing response to try and undermine them. Their leadership team do describe themselves as trained Marxists and that they want to destroy the nuclear family. I suppose you get all sorts in a movement and I don't suggest any great conspiracy but its good to look at these things before blindly following them into protest.If they bring about real change then its all good, im not against anything they're saying. Just a little sceptical having read some things online. Its hard to know what's exactly legit and what's fake now with social media, everyone has their own agenda. Don't take offence, I just like to question lots of things people take for granted. I regret the comments earlier in the thread but I do have slightly different ideas on how to help end racism than whats gone on over the last few decades. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Waldo Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 7 hours ago, throbber said: I don’t know how blatant you want it to be. The BLM movement was started because black people felt they were being disproportionately singled out by the police in the US. Whether you agree with what they stand for and if it is relevant in the U.K. or not is another matter but to say they are grouping together and coming after everything we stand for ie our history, culture and religion is simply false and is spreading hatred. He also uses a clip from America in his tweet which has little relevance to what is going on in the U.K. and he says the media need to wake up to which is going to encourage people to spread his message of hate and take matters into their own hands. He is a c**t. I would say his 'MSM' quote is vague enough to mean 'start investigating the politics behind BLM.' Nowhere is it threatening. BLMs own pages state they want to 'dismantle Capitalism', 'the abolition of police and get rid of 'the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure and replace it with a village...' To me, that is kinda gonna change more than a few wee things. I do, however, agree with your description of Farage. My issue is that, over the past few years, it seems the far(ish) left have joined the far(ish) right in trying to curtail speech by being very moby-handed and shouty. Describing this as hate speech reduces its meaning. Free speech is vital. Hopefully JK Rowling and others against it starts the fightbacks. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bairnardo Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 I know mate, sorry, was response to the guy you were quoting. Not enough caffeine intooken at point of writing, should intooken be a word. Intooken is a perfectly cromulent word. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genuine Hibs Fan Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 2 minutes ago, Bairnardo said: 46 minutes ago, carpetmonster said: I know mate, sorry, was response to the guy you were quoting. Not enough caffeine intooken at point of writing, should intooken be a word. Intooken is a perfectly cromulent word. Concomitant with the situation, even 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shandon Par Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/ Their mission statement is hardly scary or something to be wary of. Pretty dignified considering what black people have had to put up with. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 https://www.influencewatch.org/movement/black-lives-matter/ Quite a few people have questioned their origins and funding structure as marxist in nature and possibly have their own agenda, using blm and protesters as a bit of a front for disruption and political gain.I'd hope that its not true and it could be a right wing response to try and undermine them. Their leadership team do describe themselves as trained Marxists and that they want to destroy the nuclear family. I suppose you get all sorts in a movement and I don't suggest any great conspiracy but its good to look at these things before blindly following them into protest.If they bring about real change then its all good, im not against anything they're saying. Just a little sceptical having read some things online. Its hard to know what's exactly legit and what's fake now with social media, everyone has their own agenda. Don't take offence, I just like to question lots of things people take for granted. I regret the comments earlier in the thread but I do have slightly different ideas on how to help end racism than whats gone on over the last few decades. Stunned to see that the vast majority of "influencewatch" exposés are on "left wing" organisations there. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheese Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Don't really want to click the link, but wtf is a 'marxist funding structure' ? Is it the estates of Engels and Marx leaving money to BLM, like the way when an old spinsters dies and it's discovered that she's giving £250,000 to the Cat Protection League in her will. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Shocked and appalled to find out the organisation tackling structural inequalities in society describes themselves as Marxist. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee Man Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 14 hours ago, D.A.F.C said: 14 hours ago, Genuine Hibs Fan said: Mate, I know you're genuinely trying to engage with the issue. And it's important to find ways of countering structural racism more than anything else, of course. But all of the things you have mentioned have been attempted, for decades. They haven't worked because many, if not most, institutions in the USA are a part of structural racism. So the argument is in order to counter this, you have to remake those institutions (by, for example, defunding and reforming the police). People don't want to be "offered a way out" of their community, they want their community to have services, dignity and to be safe. At the moment, much of the government does not do this. And I'm sorry, but saying BLM are immune from criticism is nonsense. They are frequently criticised across the media by people from many different sides. I didn't mean offer them a way out as in tokenism I mean long term changes and as you say if that means changing entire structures then do it. Get educated, vote, become peaceful activists and move away from crime. Offering people a way out isn't effective and thats what I believe diversity is doing. Change from the top, maybe dont just remove the police entirely though. Yeah, black people should start up some sort of protest movement about how their lives matter too or something like that. It would be a start. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shotgun Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 8 hours ago, D.A.F.C said: Quite a few people have questioned their origins and funding structure as marxist in nature and possibly have their own agenda, using blm and protesters as a bit of a front for disruption and political gain. I'd hope that its not true and it could be a right wing response to try and undermine them. Quite a few people have questioned their origins because that's step 1 of the right-wing playbook. Dig up some dirt, discredit them, find the most extreme things any of them have said and pretend that's what they all believe. Throw in a few references to "communist" or "marxist" and you can be home in time for tea. It's the same routine whenever time the police murder a black civilian. The right-wing immediately start hunting for anything to show the victim was a bad person, had a criminal record, fought back, didn't do as he was told. Anything at all to shift the blame onto the victim. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shotgun Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, D.A.F.C said: I didn't mean offer them a way out as in tokenism I mean long term changes and as you say if that means changing entire structures then do it. Get educated, vote, become peaceful activists and move away from crime. Offering people a way out isn't effective and thats what I believe diversity is doing. Change from the top, maybe dont just remove the police entirely though. Are you suggesting they become peaceful activists like Colin Kaepernick? That turned out well for him. The reason people are getting violent now is from frustration because nothing else has ever worked. And once again, no sane person is advocating removing the police entirely. Edited July 9, 2020 by Shotgun 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theroadlesstravelled Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 The CHOP in Seattle was a glimpse into the horrors of a Marxist society. Capitalism is God's way of determining who is smart and who is poor. -7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpetmonster Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 48 minutes ago, Shotgun said: Are you suggesting they become peaceful activists like Colin Kaepernick? That turned out well for him. The reason people are getting violent now is from frustration because nothing else has ever worked. And once again, no sane person is advocating removing the police entirely. Today would be a really good day to arrest the police officers who murdered Breonna Taylor. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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