George Floyd/Black Lives Matter Protests

[Homer Thompson]

1 minute ago, JTS98 said:

I edited because I got the feeling you'd try to say I was denying the existence of racism. I'm not and never have.

My position is nothing like the 'all lives matter' argument. It's not even a relative of that argument.

I suppose I'll try this another way. What are you actually suggesting should be done? I don't mean 'stamp it out'. I mean what do you actually think the action here should be?

Asking the police to stop being racist? Asking people who have grown up and spent their lives living in a country where 13% of the population are responsible for more than 50% of murders not to associate that part of the population with crime? How do you do that?

As long as a small group in a society is committing such a disproportionally high amount of the crime in that society, that society is always going to associate that group with crime. And that is going to result in death, prison time, broken families, lack of opportunity, etc.

This isn't fixed by 'stamping it out'. It's fixed by investing in the schools that black kids go to. Providing positive social education to tackle youth pregnancy. Providing viable economic alternatives to gangs. Changing drug laws so that black people aren't unfairly more likely to get jail sentences and long jail sentences. Rethinking the design of Projects and areas where poor black people live in appalling conditions that lead to disorder.

These are things that take planning, political will, and money. But they're things that need to be done. Focussing on the racism itself appeals to our sense of justice and good guys and bad guys, but it misses the point and leads us down a dead end. The racism stays as long as the poverty stays.

Oh well, thats ok then. I'll let you tell the black communities that they should just accept institutional racism because theyre poor and nothing can be done about it

[Dons_1988]

7 minutes ago, Mr X said:

Bit of an over-reaction on the part of the BLM people if its that simple.

As above, you cant just brush aside the issue by trying to justify it and pointing at something else.

It isn't really, as being economically discriminated against over generations is as much of an outrage.

I'm not sure anyone is disagreeing that the BLM movement is anything other than justified and to be supported. No one is brushing aside the issue either. 

[Guest JTS98]

1 minute ago, Mr X said:

Oh well, thats ok then. I'll let you tell the black communities that they should just accept institutional racism because theyre poor and nothing can be done about it

I've suggested a list of things that can be done about it.

What are your suggestions? What should be done?

[Homer Thompson]

Just now, Dons_1988 said:

It isn't really, as being economically discriminated against over generations is as much of an outrage.

I'm not sure anyone is disagreeing that the BLM movement is anything other than justified and to be supported. No one is brushing aside the issue either. 

One person is certainly giving it a good go 

[Dons_1988]

1 minute ago, Mr X said:

Oh well, thats ok then. I'll let you tell the black communities that they should just accept institutional racism because theyre poor and nothing can be done about it

You're now just arguing in bad faith. He said nothing of the sort.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

2 hours ago, JTS98 said:

 

Being a copper is a dangerous job. I think few of us would dispute that.

I do. I can think of about a dozen more dangerous jobs off the top of my head. Being a copper has the appearance of danger but the facts don't really stick up to any sort of analysis to back this up.

Saw some nonsense boomer shite about how it was cops running into the buildings at 9/11 and not BLM protesters. Ignoring the fact that BLM wasn't a thing at the time they ignored the fact that "only" a couple dozen NYPD officers died on 9/11 and that was less than the number of unarmed people they had killed that year anyway.

But, I digress, back to the numbers. Not only (in the US at least) has it never been safer to be a cop (100 deaths in 2013 compared to nearly 300 in 1930) but the ways they die often has nothing to do with criminals. Over half their deaths are not homicides. The homicide rate for cops in the US is 5.5 out of 100,000. The homicide rate for the US altogether is 5.6 out of 100,00. It's SAFER to be a cop than not. The biggest killer of on duty cops in the US is road traffic accidents. Not in pursuit of criminals either. Just road accidents that can happen to anyone.

Edited June 23, 2020 by AsimButtHitsASix

[Homer Thompson]

1 minute ago, JTS98 said:

I've suggested a list of things that can be done about it.

What are your suggestions? What should be done?

No, you've suggested a list of things that can be done tackle poverty. The two are very clearly linked but those solutions take years, if not generations, to make any difference.

Meanwhile, you're saying we just accept that and move on.

The choice to discriminate against somebody is just that, a choice.

[Homer Thompson]

4 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

You're now just arguing in bad faith. He said nothing of the sort.

Reductio Ad Absurdum

[Guest JTS98]

2 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

I do. I can think of about a dozen more dangerous jobs off the top of my head. Being a copper has the appearance of danger but the facts don't really stick up to any sort of analysis to back this up.

Some some nonsense boomer shite about how it was cops running into the buildings at 9/11 and not BLM protesters. Ignoring the fact that BLM wasn't a thing at the time they ignored the fact that "only" a couple dozen NYPD officers died on 9/11 and that was less than the number of unarmed people they had killed that year anyway.

But, I digress, back to the numbers. Not only (in the US at least) has it never been safer to be a cop (100 deaths in 2013 compared to nearly 300 in 1930) but the ways they die often has nothing to do with criminals. Over half their deaths are not homicides. The homicide rate for cops in the US is 5.5 out of 100,000. The homicide rate for the US altogether is 5.6 out of 100,00. It's SAFER to be a cop than not. The biggest killer of on duty cops in the US is road traffic accidents. Not in pursuit of criminals either. Just road accidents that can happen to anyone.

In 2018/19 30,000 police officers in England and Wales were assaulted. I've never been assaulted at my work.

Are we actually going down the road of saying that a job where apprehending violent criminals is a key task is not dangerous?

[Guest JTS98]

3 minutes ago, Mr X said:

No, you've suggested a list of things that can be done tackle poverty. The two are very clearly linked but those solutions take years, if not generations, to make any difference.

Meanwhile, you're saying we just accept that and move on.

The choice to discriminate against somebody is just that, a choice.

Yes, it will take years. But if it had been done years ago, we'd be better off now. It has to start sometime.

You're looking for a quick fix that doesn't exist.

You still haven't told me what you'd like to see done.

[Homer Thompson]

4 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Yes, it will take years. But if it had been done years ago, we'd be better off now. It has to start sometime.

Of course, I completely agree

4 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

You're looking for a quick fix that doesn't exist.

This is where we fundamentally disagree. Or lets put it another way, we seem to disagree that something should be tried to make a difference now.

Im afraid simply saying "well nothing can be done to make things better now" isnt that far away from condoning it

4 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

You still haven't told me what you'd like to see done.

Honestly, I dont know. As a black, gay, lesbian male (for today) in Scotland Ive never come across any prejudice to draw from.

I think what can be done is already happening. Raising awareness, holding those responsible accountable and basically saying enough is enough, putting pressure to get those long-term fixes put in place.

But, again, discrimination is a choice. Hopefully, all of this will make some people look at their actions and choices and make better ones going forward

[NotThePars]

Same with the suspicious black lives matter anti white leaflets and graffiti which have been doing the rounds.
The recent protests where every pic was of black youths attacking lone white guys.
The police kneeling down before BLM and antifa rioters, compared to full riot gear for the fitba fuds and right wing types.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Was that the clips where they kneeled down to put on masks before launching tear gas at BLM protestors

[Guest JTS98]

1 minute ago, Mr X said:

Of course, I completely agree

This is where we fundamentally disagree. Or lets put it another way, we seem to disagree that something should be tried to make a difference now.

1) Im afraid simply saying "well nothing can be done to make things better now" isnt that far away from condoning it

Honestly, I dont know. As a black, gay, lesbian male (for today) in Scotland Ive never come across any prejudice to draw from.

I think what can be done is already happening. 2) Raising awareness, holding those responsible accountable and basically saying enough is enough, putting pressure to get those long-term fixes put in place.

3) But, again, discrimination is a choice. Hopefully, all of this will make some people look at their actions and choices and make better ones going forward

1) It's miles away from condoning it.

2) This is just nothing. What awareness do you think can be raised of racism in America that isn't already there? This is the country of slavery, the Civil War and the Civil Rights Movement. I don't think there's an American alive who isn't aware of racism and who hasn't been told through school, tv shows, newspapers, celebrities etc that it is bad. Awareness raising at this stage is probably impossible, and pointless anyway.

3) That's a soundbite, but there's decent evidence around now from the world of social science that it's not true. Humans discriminate against each other all the time and for varied reasons. Most commonly fear. As I said previously, someone who grows up in a society where one group is disproportionally poor and involved in crime may well enter adulthood associating that group with poverty and crime. Against that backdrop things like 'saying enough is enough' are a waste of time. You have to change the facts on the ground. People don't like solutions that take time, but complicated problems often require complicated solutions.

[NotThePars]

They'd probably face strong competition if someone founded an "Applaud the NHS, gunge the paedo's" party.

This will be Sir Keir’s triangulated opposition strategy in 2024

[Miguel Sanchez]

I'm surprised wisbit's return has lasted as long as this tbh.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

8 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

In 2018/19 30,000 police officers in England and Wales were assaulted. I've never been assaulted at my work.

Are we actually going down the road of saying that a job where apprehending violent criminals is a key task is not dangerous?

Yes. Yes we are. Because, in general, criminals avoid the police. The people who criminals interact with in the process of committing crimes are far more likely to be harmed. Also the taxi drivers, shopkeepers, paramedics, public transport workers and bar staff (who are all more likely to be assaulted at their work) do not have stab vest, batons, mace, tazers and a partner in tow with them.

I was assaulted, I dunno, half a dozen times as bar staff, once working for British Gas and a coupla times working front of line services for the NHS. Of those 30,000 you mentioned over two thirds are classed as "assault without injury" which includes being spat at or resisting arrest. I'm not saying being spat at is a nice thing or getting shoved off by someone you are arresting is pleasant but don't pretend that they are particularly dangerous. Also this figure of 30,000, as impressive as it sounds, is arrived entirely without context. Using the same criteria of what makes an assault how does that compare to the population at large?

10,000 assaults with injury equals 8% of the police force and that's presuming there are no officers who were assaulted twice in that time and it is 10,000 individual coppers. Whereas 20% of the population of England and Wales were victims of an attempted crime in that same period (excluding fraud this drops down to similar rates of that of coppers)

Once again the facts of the matter show there is nothing particularly more dangerous about being a copper than there is in the general population.
 

[Homer Thompson]

4 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

1) It's miles away from condoning it.

2) This is just nothing. What awareness do you think can be raised of racism in America that isn't already there? This is the country of slavery, the Civil War and the Civil Rights Movement. I don't think there's an American alive who isn't aware of racism and who hasn't been told through school, tv shows, newspapers, celebrities etc that it is bad. Awareness raising at this stage is probably impossible, and pointless anyway.

3) That's a soundbite, but there's decent evidence around now from the world of social science that it's not true. Humans discriminate against each other all the time and for varied reasons. Most commonly fear. As I said previously, someone who grows up in a society where one group is disproportionally poor and involved in crime may well enter adulthood associating that group with poverty and crime. Against that backdrop things like 'saying enough is enough' are a waste of time. You have to change the facts on the ground. People don't like solutions that take time, but complicated problems often require complicated solutions.

Edited June 23, 2020 by Mr X

[madwullie]

38 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

I do. I can think of about a dozen more dangerous jobs off the top of my head. Being a copper has the appearance of danger but the facts don't really stick up to any sort of analysis to back this up.

Saw some nonsense boomer shite about how it was cops running into the buildings at 9/11 and not BLM protesters. Ignoring the fact that BLM wasn't a thing at the time they ignored the fact that "only" a couple dozen NYPD officers died on 9/11 and that was less than the number of unarmed people they had killed that year anyway.

But, I digress, back to the numbers. Not only (in the US at least) has it never been safer to be a cop (100 deaths in 2013 compared to nearly 300 in 1930) but the ways they die often has nothing to do with criminals. Over half their deaths are not homicides. The homicide rate for cops in the US is 5.5 out of 100,000. The homicide rate for the US altogether is 5.6 out of 100,00. It's SAFER to be a cop than not. The biggest killer of on duty cops in the US is road traffic accidents. Not in pursuit of criminals either. Just road accidents that can happen to anyone.

Saw this thread on the issue

 

https://twitter.com/Gaohmee/status/1272964277381431296?s=19

[WhiteRoseKillie]

46 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

It isn't really, as being economically discriminated against over generations is as much of an outrage.

I'm not sure anyone is disagreeing that the BLM movement is anything other than justified and to be supported. No one is brushing aside the issue either. 

That is a really euphemistic way of defining slavery and its modern day equivalent in the USA's CJ system.

[Guest JTS98]

2 minutes ago, WhiteRoseKillie said:

That is a really euphemistic way of defining slavery and its modern day equivalent in the USA's CJ system.

The post you've quoted refers to generations of injustice and explicitly calls it an 'outrage'.

It is perhaps a sign of the tone of the conversation around this issue that you somehow seem to think that post is not strong enough.