Genuine Hibs Fan Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 8 minutes ago, welshbairn said: I think the lesson is we shouldn't whine about police murdering people until.. 1. Full racial and economic equality is achieved. 2. China becomes a liberal democracy instead of a brutal dictatorship. 3. Libya becomes a functioning state again instead of random warlords using sub Saharan refugees as slaves. You've forgotten 4. Eradicated homelessness and poverty from the UK. 5. Locked up all the thousands of "Asian grooming gangs" in northern towns 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madwullie Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 56 minutes ago, JTS98 said: Doesn't sound like it, no. But it doesn't follow from that that you stop funding the police. It follows from that that you sack the people running ot badly. That's a political failing that voters should be using elections to do something about. Is anybody seriously suggesting stopping funding them entirely? Defund imo more means cut their bloated budgets down a bit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madwullie Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 (edited) 56 minutes ago, JTS98 said: It's extremely wishful thinking to imagine that shootings just won't happen because there are no police around. Power vacuums simply never operate like that anywhere in human history. And the police are not purely reactionary. They fill the violence vacuum. Who says gang violence doesn't get worse with a decreased police presence? Certainly the opportunity for gangs rises. The motivation for violence rises since there's more to gain. I'm not against increased spending in the community. I spent pages arguing for it last night. Your entire argument seems based on the idea that the serious proposal is total abolition of the police. Its not. It won't be the case that "there are no police around". Just that those who are aren't trained mainly to view themselves as warriors and turning up to domestics and burglaries in full body armour with fully modded assault weapons in armoured mine proof personnel carriers. Edited June 24, 2020 by madwullie 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbornbairn Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 It was 104 people shot in Chicago over Father's Day weekend - https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020/6/20/21297470/chicago-fathers-day-weekend-shootings-homicide-gun-violence-june-19-22-104-shot Quote Chicago saw its highest number of gun violence victims in a single weekend this year with 104 people shot across the city from Friday evening to Monday morning, 14 of them fatally. Five of those killed were minors. The weekend saw more shooting victims but less fatalities than the last weekend of May, when 85 people were shot, 24 of them fatally — Chicago’s most deadly weekend in years. I don't think we understand over here just how incredibly violent some of the inner cities in America are. Trying to draw comparisons between the UK and USA cops has to take that into account 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JTS98 Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 (edited) 46 minutes ago, madwullie said: Your entire argument seems based on the idea that the serious proposal is total abolition of the police. Its not. It won't be the case that "there are no police around". Just that those who are aren't trained mainly to view themselves as warriors and turning up to domestics and burglaries in full body armour with fully modded assault weapons in armoured mine proof personnel carriers. When people, especially white people, consider a world without the police, they envision a society as violent as our current one, merely without law enforcement — and they shudder. As a society, we have been so indoctrinated with the idea that we solve problems by policing and caging people that many cannot imagine anything other than prisons and the police as solutions to violence and harm. People like me who want to abolish prisons and police, however, have a vision of a different society, built on cooperation instead of individualism, on mutual aid instead of self-preservation. What would the country look like if it had billions of extra dollars to spend on housing, food and education for all? This change in society wouldn’t happen immediately, but the protests show that many people are ready to embrace a different vision of safety and justice. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html Jenn Jackson, Political Scientist, Syracuse University - The only way to end police violence against Black Americans is to ban the police and decriminalize the mere notion of existing while Black in America. Ayobami Laniyonu, sociologist, University of Toronto - I believe that the movement to defund the police and abolish them as we know it is incredibly pragmatic. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/6/12/21283813/george-floyd-blm-abolish-the-police-8cantwait-minneapolis During a calm interlude on a Saturday two weeks ago, I spoke to a protester carrying a “Defund the Police” sign. “I don’t think there should be any confusion, we mean what we say we mean—police in this country need to go; defunded, abolished. And the prisons,” said Taylor James, a 26-year-old from Montgomery County, Maryland. “We tried Band-Aiding the problem, we tried reforms, and what? Another Black man was murdered and we’re still out protesting.” https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/06/black-lives-matter-protests-split-police-brutality-solutions We call for a national defunding of police. We demand investment in our communities and the resources to ensure Black people not only survive, but thrive. If you’re with us, add your name to the petition right now and help us spread the word. ETA - 'defund' - verb - prevent from continuing to receive funds. https://blacklivesmatter.com/defundthepolice/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=d61453ab11a8a599c914389d31170a241a4acb7e-1593007186-0-AVhASdR40itV7Kfl81GQqH1sQ8zk3jn8Vfy5bOvF88_aktdzYf8-1uA1nLlJBAL4hV0y4SRA4J4d9eXimECVhe2VPg3BsJW8WMIZfyYtojByhA39AENjkH4AEbhTWmPpiitGPaiXs5RF5SoYez8srUfyjYjYfYUwel49pJsFdHGiokzOT6tfeSZad1KXeIVbbMrgIUaPoJ76AP9OWpAfdFsCDE5C4CSvA7dorjaBUbUGXU9BXu5f83eErRatMbsAowL5J6wk1DAaQJrik0y5Gg5nWlAG_-4dGNP5PIjKXu6wieOEHn4qGP473a5W3SBat9Dt5e7tu5if3hmwYk9__pfnE6p8qtyCe3Xh91jU0Bw0 4Front spokesman on CBS news. - I strongly believe that us in the UK have to defund the police ... and ultimately put forward the case for abolition. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asZE7ZmE32k Do you think that these people don't mean what they say they mean? Why? Edited June 24, 2020 by JTS98 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbornbairn Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 4 minutes ago, JTS98 said: When people, especially white people, consider a world without the police, they envision a society as violent as our current one, merely without law enforcement — and they shudder. As a society, we have been so indoctrinated with the idea that we solve problems by policing and caging people that many cannot imagine anything other than prisons and the police as solutions to violence and harm. People like me who want to abolish prisons and police, however, have a vision of a different society, built on cooperation instead of individualism, on mutual aid instead of self-preservation. What would the country look like if it had billions of extra dollars to spend on housing, food and education for all? This change in society wouldn’t happen immediately, but the protests show that many people are ready to embrace a different vision of safety and justice. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html Jenn Jackson, Political Scientist, Syracuse University - The only way to end police violence against Black Americans is to ban the police and decriminalize the mere notion of existing while Black in America. Ayobami Laniyonu, sociologist, University of Toronto - I believe that the movement to defund the police and abolish them as we know it is incredibly pragmatic. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/6/12/21283813/george-floyd-blm-abolish-the-police-8cantwait-minneapolis During a calm interlude on a Saturday two weeks ago, I spoke to a protester carrying a “Defund the Police” sign. “I don’t think there should be any confusion, we mean what we say we mean—police in this country need to go; defunded, abolished. And the prisons,” said Taylor James, a 26-year-old from Montgomery County, Maryland. “We tried Band-Aiding the problem, we tried reforms, and what? Another Black man was murdered and we’re still out protesting.” https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/06/black-lives-matter-protests-split-police-brutality-solutions We call for a national defunding of police. We demand investment in our communities and the resources to ensure Black people not only survive, but thrive. If you’re with us, add your name to the petition right now and help us spread the word. https://blacklivesmatter.com/defundthepolice/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=d61453ab11a8a599c914389d31170a241a4acb7e-1593007186-0-AVhASdR40itV7Kfl81GQqH1sQ8zk3jn8Vfy5bOvF88_aktdzYf8-1uA1nLlJBAL4hV0y4SRA4J4d9eXimECVhe2VPg3BsJW8WMIZfyYtojByhA39AENjkH4AEbhTWmPpiitGPaiXs5RF5SoYez8srUfyjYjYfYUwel49pJsFdHGiokzOT6tfeSZad1KXeIVbbMrgIUaPoJ76AP9OWpAfdFsCDE5C4CSvA7dorjaBUbUGXU9BXu5f83eErRatMbsAowL5J6wk1DAaQJrik0y5Gg5nWlAG_-4dGNP5PIjKXu6wieOEHn4qGP473a5W3SBat9Dt5e7tu5if3hmwYk9__pfnE6p8qtyCe3Xh91jU0Bw0 4Front spokesman on CBS news. - I strongly believe that us in the UK have to defund the police ... and ultimately put forward the case for abolition. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asZE7ZmE32k Do you think that these people don't mean what they say they mean? Why? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madwullie Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 48 minutes ago, JTS98 said: When people, especially white people, consider a world without the police, they envision a society as violent as our current one, merely without law enforcement — and they shudder. As a society, we have been so indoctrinated with the idea that we solve problems by policing and caging people that many cannot imagine anything other than prisons and the police as solutions to violence and harm. People like me who want to abolish prisons and police, however, have a vision of a different society, built on cooperation instead of individualism, on mutual aid instead of self-preservation. What would the country look like if it had billions of extra dollars to spend on housing, food and education for all? This change in society wouldn’t happen immediately, but the protests show that many people are ready to embrace a different vision of safety and justice. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html Jenn Jackson, Political Scientist, Syracuse University - The only way to end police violence against Black Americans is to ban the police and decriminalize the mere notion of existing while Black in America. Ayobami Laniyonu, sociologist, University of Toronto - I believe that the movement to defund the police and abolish them as we know it is incredibly pragmatic. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/6/12/21283813/george-floyd-blm-abolish-the-police-8cantwait-minneapolis During a calm interlude on a Saturday two weeks ago, I spoke to a protester carrying a “Defund the Police” sign. “I don’t think there should be any confusion, we mean what we say we mean—police in this country need to go; defunded, abolished. And the prisons,” said Taylor James, a 26-year-old from Montgomery County, Maryland. “We tried Band-Aiding the problem, we tried reforms, and what? Another Black man was murdered and we’re still out protesting.” https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/06/black-lives-matter-protests-split-police-brutality-solutions We call for a national defunding of police. We demand investment in our communities and the resources to ensure Black people not only survive, but thrive. If you’re with us, add your name to the petition right now and help us spread the word. ETA - 'defund' - verb - prevent from continuing to receive funds. https://blacklivesmatter.com/defundthepolice/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=d61453ab11a8a599c914389d31170a241a4acb7e-1593007186-0-AVhASdR40itV7Kfl81GQqH1sQ8zk3jn8Vfy5bOvF88_aktdzYf8-1uA1nLlJBAL4hV0y4SRA4J4d9eXimECVhe2VPg3BsJW8WMIZfyYtojByhA39AENjkH4AEbhTWmPpiitGPaiXs5RF5SoYez8srUfyjYjYfYUwel49pJsFdHGiokzOT6tfeSZad1KXeIVbbMrgIUaPoJ76AP9OWpAfdFsCDE5C4CSvA7dorjaBUbUGXU9BXu5f83eErRatMbsAowL5J6wk1DAaQJrik0y5Gg5nWlAG_-4dGNP5PIjKXu6wieOEHn4qGP473a5W3SBat9Dt5e7tu5if3hmwYk9__pfnE6p8qtyCe3Xh91jU0Bw0 4Front spokesman on CBS news. - I strongly believe that us in the UK have to defund the police ... and ultimately put forward the case for abolition. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asZE7ZmE32k Do you think that these people don't mean what they say they mean? Why? I'm talking about stuff that could actually happen though. If you want to argue with these guys' points, hunt them down on twitter or something 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inanimate Carbon Rod Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 In some American cities the police are driving around in military hardware. It's hard to argue that mine proof trucks are a necessary part of policing a community. Sure I read somewhere that the nypd has something like in the top 10 highest military spending on the planet (that might be wrong) Demilitarising the police would go a long way towards making them view themselves less as soldiers. Some of the training videos I've seen of the US police aren't a kick in the arse off army training either. Sure it might not stop them from being racist, but it would surely help stop them being so trigger happy. Genuinely astounded by the level of equipment the US police have, but a lot of that is down to asset forfeiture laws, if they take proceeds of crime off a drug dealer they apparently arent allowed to use that to pay wages, but they are allowed to use it to buy equipment and then they get good deals on ex millitary vehicles, quite strange. The idea of ‘defunding the police’ is a bit hazey in America, perhaps what they really need is to ‘upfund’ social services and health care. Paying private millitary contractors billions and having the largest standing armed forces on the planet would be better targets for it here. I feel similar about the UK, you cant really defund the police in Scotland, they’re already skint, but we could make sure we arent blowing money on WMD’s and investing that saving in Education and social care? Ensure companies that trade in the UK pay fair tax and not use status of being based elsewhere the basis for tax dodging, if amazon and apple trade here they pay tax on their earnings here, that would still mean these companies make profit but help contribute to society. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 You definitely can defund the police here. Make it illegal for them to buy snacks during their shift and efficiency will go up by about 30% requiring less pigs in total. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inanimate Carbon Rod Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 The FOP in the US is a fucking menace, with Chicago’s being particularly egregious - look up John Catanzara, our head of FOP, who’s actually had his ability to perform police duties withdrawn - https://www.google.com/amp/s/chicago.suntimes.com/platform/amp/metro-state/2020/5/11/21254115/stripped-police-powers-new-cpd-union-president-wants-to-chart-a-new-course Meanwhile, last weekend, 102 people were shot in Chicago, 14 fatally. And last year the city’s taxpayer was on the hook for $113m in settlement payouts to victims of police brutality. You think we’re getting value for the 1.7bn (or 36% of the budget) we spend on em?Just worth pointing out that many police forces in America will settle before court because the cost of a trial is often far more than the settlement even if they win. Not saying that absolves blame for things done wrong but it is a perspective that should be kept in mind. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpetmonster Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 1 minute ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said: Just worth pointing out that many police forces in America will settle before court because the cost of a trial is often far more than the settlement even if they win. Not saying that absolves blame for things done wrong but it is a perspective that should be kept in mind. Which is fine, except the cops are on the hook for precisely f**k all of that money and it’s the taxpayer that pays the whole shebang. Mayor Lori is talking about CPD all having to be individually licensed, which can’t come soon enough. Would also stop arsehole cops from getting released or resigning from one city PD and joining the force in the next town over. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inanimate Carbon Rod Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 the trident analogy's quite a good one when you look at some of the jaw dropping disparities in how much funding the police get vs basic services in some American cities and states: I totally agree man, the UK could still have its aircraft carrier, its army, etc etc but all im arguing is do we really need WMD’s when the biggest threat to the UK is poverty? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 1 hour ago, madwullie said: Your entire argument seems based on the idea that the serious proposal is total abolition of the police. Its not. It won't be the case that "there are no police around". Just that those who are aren't trained mainly to view themselves as warriors and turning up to domestics and burglaries in full body armour with fully modded assault weapons in armoured mine proof personnel carriers. I can understand why having an armoured carrier on standby might be handy over there when this is what can happen when called out to a domestic. They needed one to go in and pick up the dead trainee. Don't think there's anything gory in the bodycam footage. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Blades Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 The FOP in the US is a fucking menace, with Chicago’s being particularly egregious - look up John Catanzara, our head of FOP, who’s actually had his ability to perform police duties withdrawn - https://www.google.com/amp/s/chicago.suntimes.com/platform/amp/metro-state/2020/5/11/21254115/stripped-police-powers-new-cpd-union-president-wants-to-chart-a-new-course Meanwhile, last weekend, 102 people were shot in Chicago, 14 fatally. And last year the city’s taxpayer was on the hook for $113m in settlement payouts to victims of police brutality. You think we’re getting value for the 1.7bn (or 36% of the budget) we spend on em?Around 6% of the air breathed in Chicago is lead. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inanimate Carbon Rod Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 I can understand why having an armoured carrier on standby might be handy over there when this is what can happen when called out to a domestic. They needed one to go in and pick up the dead trainee. Don't think there's anything gory in the bodycam footage. This idea that a domestic dispute isnt a dangerous situation is mad, in Scotland more people are murdered in Domestic circumstances than any other. Domestic violence should not be downplayed and the idea of a community de-escalation team turning up in Castlemilk and trying to reason with Shuggie holding a samurai sword is comical at best. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said: This idea that a domestic dispute isnt a dangerous situation is mad, in Scotland more people are murdered in Domestic circumstances than any other. Domestic violence should not be downplayed and the idea of a community de-escalation team turning up in Castlemilk and trying to reason with Shuggie holding a samurai sword is comical at best. At least our police are trained in de-escalation though. Well I hope they are. Edited June 24, 2020 by welshbairn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madwullie Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 1 hour ago, madwullie said: I'm talking about stuff that could actually happen though. If you want to argue with these guys' points, hunt them down on twitter or something Sorry that came across a bit harsh mate 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inanimate Carbon Rod Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 Which is fine, except the cops are on the hook for precisely f**k all of that money and it’s the taxpayer that pays the whole shebang. Mayor Lori is talking about CPD all having to be individually licensed, which can’t come soon enough. Would also stop arsehole cops from getting released or resigning from one city PD and joining the force in the next town over. Well a person working at Mcdonalds isnt individually on the hook if someone dies from an ecoli outbreak? Criminally police officers are individually liable and I know in Scotland at least they spend an absolute fortune paying for their own legal cover individually. I completely agree that they shouldnt be allowed to resign and move to the next town etc, the UK has a database of people banned from law enforcement and has other systems in place to help stop these people being accredited in the likes of pvg etc also. The american problem is that at local, county, state and federal level police forces dont talk to each other... i’ve pointed out that within one county i visit regularly (Orange County FL) there are in excess of 6 ‘city’ police forces, plus a sheriff’s dept, plus state police agencies and federal, its overkill. Re-structuring to state level would save a lot of money which could be diverted as there will be less executive salaries and infrastructure required, which could be diverted elsewhere. You could also rationalise the training. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thistle_do_nicely Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 4 hours ago, Detournement said: You definitely can defund the police here. Make it illegal for them to buy snacks during their shift and efficiency will go up by about 30% requiring less pigs in total. How do you do, fellow kids 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellaboz Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 How do you do, fellow kidsMan you're such a babe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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