George Floyd/Black Lives Matter Protests

[Bairnardo]

This is a good post, but the problem with the term ‘chinky,’ is that you’d have to have lived under a rock to not know that it is a racial slur, and if you still feel that it’s more important to be able to use it to describe your Saturday night takeaway because you always have, you absolutely should be called out as a racist, because that’s inexcusable. 
 
The overlap between those who refuse to use the phrase Chinese takeaway and those who hold what you might call ‘traditional’ racist views will also be massive. 

Aye, agreed. It was a very specific example I had used at the time of a person who I could hand on heart say was absolutely not racist but I can accept the overlap you describe is highly likely to exist. I just cant get past (and this might end up being part of my education on the subject) the view there are levels to this and to say that someone is a racist is strong and becoming stronger in terms of "mud sticks".

It's such an evolving, emotive and loaded subject (rightly so tbh) that sometimes it's hard to speak about without falling into some traps. Sometimes I think people enter into the subject utterly determined to call someone a racist. Equally some people enter into it staunchly determined that their views wont change and go with the "you cant say anything these days without offending folk" patter. Neither is helpful, but my opinion it would help if more folk acknowledged theres a difference between someone who needs to learn to use different words and lay off certain stereotypes, and someone who actively and knowingly discriminates against people because they see them as inferior based on race.

I have to admit that while I like engaging about these topics on here, in real life the last few weeks have been fucking depressing with the amount of "WHITE LIVES MATTER TAE" chat I have heard from people insisting they are "not a racist, but....."

Theres so much work to do in this country and if it isnt constructive then it will end up making it worse. The amount of racist comments I have heard tagged on the end of a sentence that started off sounding like it was supportive of BLM protests is incredible. As is the number of people who have somehow effortlessly segued into homophobia in the same discussion.

[Gordon EF]

Just now, ali_91 said:

How do you change people’s views though? The vast majority of people (myself included) are unwilling to waver far from what they perceive to be the right path. On that basis, and on the basis that even educating people about why their opinions are wrong doesn’t really work, ‘calling them out’ is probably the best method, because being called a racist is the thing that offends racists the most, and if you can’t change them, might as well annoy them. 

I definitely don't have an easy answer to that and I don't think there is one. And to be clear I'm not talking about "proper racists". Changing their views would probably take an enormous amount of time and effort if it's even possible so ridiculing them and criticising them is fair enough.

Folk who say things like "all lives matter" are probably a better example. I appreciate you might think all these people are racists but I think a lot of them don't think of themselves that way. I think there's been a fair amount of decent discussions being had about why BLM is a legitimate movement and why ALM isn't really an appropriate response. I'm sure plenty of people have re-evaluated their view. I don't think screaming bigot at them would do any good.

[Gordon EF]

58 minutes ago, ali_91 said:

This is actually a good example, and I would hope that most sensible people would try and explain the connotations behind all lives matter and why it’s not an appropriate response to the BLM movement before branding someone a racist. 
 

I fully admit I can be too quick to judge on issues like this, however using the term ALM is a screaming warning sign that someone supports rangers and protects statues, and if it is explained to someone why saying all lives matter is downplaying the BLM movement and they still can’t see why it’s not an appropriate saying, then in my opinion they are clearly entering in to bigot territory, even if, as Bairnardo said, that isn’t fully fledged ‘I’m superior because I’m white,’ racism. 

I'd agree. Basically, everyone who's a massive gammon-faced, Rangers supporting, statue-defending bigot is going to say ALM but not everyone who says it is going to be a massive gammon-faced, Rangers supporting, statue-defending bigot.

[Hampden Diehard]

There are a lot of people in the UK who are simply p***ks.  Race, religion and all the sexual / gender issues only gives them a particular focus for their p***kery. If it wasn't for that wee mix of things to get annoyed about, they'd still be p***ks, Ignorant and a skitter smear on humanity.

[Savage Henry]

3 hours ago, ali_91 said:

This is a good post, but the problem with the term ‘chinky,’ is that you’d have to have lived under a rock to not know that it is a racial slur, and if you still feel that it’s more important to be able to use it to describe your Saturday night takeaway because you always have, you absolutely should be called out as a racist, because that’s inexcusable. 
 

The overlap between those who refuse to use the phrase Chinese takeaway and those who hold what you might call ‘traditional’ racist views will also be massive. 

Anyone who uses the word chinky is absolutely aware it’s a racial slur.  It can’t be justified in any way.  Likewise an unawareness of symptomatic racism makes one part of the problem, and a person’s refusal to accept it on the grounds that “I’m not racist and will oppose any racism I come across” is even more so.   There are certain phrases you just can’t use, whether you agree with that or not.  I’d be amazed, but not surprised, if certain football songs continue to be sung under the guise of traditional slang.  

If your natural reaction to “black lives matter” is to say “all lives matter”, that’s a much deeper and malevolent mind set.  By reacting in that way, you are deliberately dismissing the particular BLM issues, which is the matter at hand, even if it is under a pretence of empathy.  There’s no justification for saying all lives matter, because not only does it subjugate BLM, but it demands attention on White Lives Matter Too, which perpetuates existing power structures.  

In short, we all have to moderate our language and our actions, and our beliefs.  Sometimes it’s better to just shut up and listen, rather than (pretending to?) empathise.

 

Edited July 5, 2020 by Savage Henry

[NotThePars]

2 hours ago, Gordon EF said:

Part of the issue with "calling people out" is how effective is it. The example of someone who refuses to stop using words like "chinky" or "paki" after having it explained multiple times that's it's not really acceptable is a bit of an easy one. But there are far more ambiguous examples. If someone doesn't see themselves as a racist then it seems pretty unlikely that being called a racist is going to change their views.

Think a major problem, particularly online, is that nobody really knows who's engaging in good faith or just trying to point score. I'm guilty of it myself and think it's fine to dunk on people who know what they're doing but plenty of people are just ignorant and maybe need it patiently explained. The other issue with calling out is what's the next step? Loads of people don't have a next step and I wonder how they expect to win people over to their side if there's no positive reason to other than scolding.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

I'm guessing D.A.F.C. is generally disliked and passed over for promotion on what seems like a monthly basis because he's a racist melt. Oh well, mystery solved.

[D.A.F.C]

I'm guessing D.A.F.C. is generally disliked and passed over for promotion on what seems like a monthly basis because he's a racist melt. Oh well, mystery solved.

And there we have it.
Mystery solved.
Thanks for your contribution.

[Gordon EF]

5 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

Think a major problem, particularly online, is that nobody really knows who's engaging in good faith or just trying to point score. I'm guilty of it myself and think it's fine to dunk on people who know what they're doing but plenty of people are just ignorant and maybe need it patiently explained. The other issue with calling out is what's the next step? Loads of people don't have a next step and I wonder how they expect to win people over to their side if there's no positive reason to other than scolding.

Yeah, I think we're all guilty of it to some extent. It's not particularly a problem with certain issues or with the left or whatever. Piling on and 'calling out' is easy and feels good. A bit of patience and explaining things is difficult and not as immediately gratifying. Humans being humans, there's only one winner there 99% of the time.

[Marshmallo]

10 minutes ago, Day of the Lords said:

I'm guessing D.A.F.C. is generally disliked and passed over for promotion on what seems like a monthly basis because he's a racist melt. Oh well, mystery solved.

Who does this post help? Overly personal for no reason.

[D.A.F.C]

Yeah, I think we're all guilty of it to some extent. It's not particularly a problem with certain issues or with the left or whatever. Piling on and 'calling out' is easy and feels good. A bit of patience and explaining things is difficult and not as immediately gratifying. Humans being humans, there's only one winner there 99% of the time.

As said social media and other formats now reward hateful nasty behaviour though dopamine reward systems that encourage pile ons, ganging up and reducing conversations into bun fights because its so much easier and rewarding to follow the side that is seen as 'winning' regardless of its actualy a reasoned argument.
Yes my original post wasn't backed up with why I thought that just putting bame people into roles to fill gaps isn't a great long term solution but that doesn't justify the responses either.
At the end of the day the facts are there for anyone who wants to look it up.
Nah, fuxk that will just throw a stone. I get rewarded for doing so.
Theres always posters who do this on every forum they love a heads gone or seeing someone get cornered or abused.
Bringing up previous threads and posts adds to it and they can smell blood.
Its beyond pathetic and predatory behaviour.

[vikingTON]

1 minute ago, D.A.F.C said:

As said social media and other formats now reward hateful nasty behaviour though dopamine reward systems that encourage pile ons, ganging up and reducing conversations into bun fights because its so much easier and rewarding to follow the side that is seen as 'winning' regardless of its actualy a reasoned argument.
Yes my original post wasn't backed up with why I thought that just putting bame people into roles to fill gaps isn't a great long term solution but that doesn't justify the responses either.
At the end of the day the facts are there for anyone who wants to look it up.
Nah, fuxk that will just throw a stone. I get rewarded for doing so.
Theres always posters who do this on every forum they love a heads gone or seeing someone get cornered or abused.
Bringing up previous threads and posts adds to it and they can smell blood.
Its beyond pathetic and predatory behaviour.

Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out then. 

[Shandon Par]

37 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

In short, we all have to moderate our language and our actions, and our beliefs.  Sometimes it’s better to just shut up and listen, rather than (pretending to?) empathise.

 

This has to be the mantra of the moment. Would there be protests if everything was fine? 
 

The Dunfermline Press has run a few stories recently that should make people feel very uncomfortable. A girl who regularly has the n word shouted at her, an Asian guy who tried to kill himself over the abuse he faced growing up, a lad who had classmates set up a Facebook page wanting him “sent home” (and not from school). This wasn’t decades ago - these are folk in their twenties.

Even the last two people (IIRC) who have died at the hands of the police in Scotland  have been black. Maybe the police response would have been the same if they were white? Maybe not? Maybe it hints at that “otherness” that seems to make it far easier for police in America to use extreme force against someone who looks different to them.

 

 

[Sergeant Wilson]

9 minutes ago, D.A.F.C said:

As said social media and other formats now reward hateful nasty behaviour though dopamine reward systems that encourage pile ons, ganging up and reducing conversations into bun fights because its so much easier and rewarding to follow the side that is seen as 'winning' regardless of its actualy a reasoned argument.
Yes my original post wasn't backed up with why I thought that just putting bame people into roles to fill gaps isn't a great long term solution but that doesn't justify the responses either.
At the end of the day the facts are there for anyone who wants to look it up.
Nah, fuxk that will just throw a stone. I get rewarded for doing so.
Theres always posters who do this on every forum they love a heads gone or seeing someone get cornered or abused.
Bringing up previous threads and posts adds to it and they can smell blood.
Its beyond pathetic and predatory behaviour.

You do seem keen to paint yourself in to a similar corner to the one you describe at work.

[Shadow Play]

18 hours ago, Marshmallo said:

I'm out of reputation points to down vote your ramblings.......

How often do you have to react to comments to reach this milestone?

[Binos]

24 minutes ago, Shandon Par said:

This has to be the mantra of the moment. Would there be protests if everything was fine? 
 

The Dunfermline Press has run a few stories recently that should make people feel very uncomfortable. A girl who regularly has the n word shouted at her, an Asian guy who tried to kill himself over the abuse he faced growing up, a lad who had classmates set up a Facebook page wanting him “sent home” (and not from school). This wasn’t decades ago - these are folk in their twenties.

Even the last two people (IIRC) who have died at the hands of the police in Scotland  have been black. Maybe the police response would have been the same if they were white? Maybe not? Maybe it hints at that “otherness” that seems to make it far easier for police in America to use extreme force against someone who looks different to them.

 

 

It's Fife though

Not everywheres as bad as that

[D.A.F.C]

20 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

You do seem keen to paint yourself in to a similar corner to the one you describe at work.

No, other people do and make massive jumps and assumptions.

[Jacksgranda]

1 minute ago, D.A.F.C said:

No, other people do and make massive jumps and assumptions.

^^^^ A'body's oot o' step except oor Jock" type post

[D.A.F.C]

1 minute ago, Jacksgranda said:

^^^^ A'body's oot o' step except oor Jock" type post

^^^ another sweeping generalisation and putting words in somebody else’s mouth type post

give me likes give me likes 

[Sergeant Wilson]

5 minutes ago, D.A.F.C said:

No, other people do and make massive jumps and assumptions.

It's not always the case, but if a significant majority point out the flaw in an argument, not just yours, it can be a starting point to review that argument. I've tried and I'm still not sure what you're trying to say.

It sounds like you object to action to reverse years of racism because they don't go far enough, to the extent that you disapprove of the limited amount of action already taken.

Ie Ian Wright shouldn't be on the telly until the DG of the BBC is black as well.