George Floyd/Black Lives Matter Protests

[Dan Steele]

Neil Oliver stands down from his role at NTS. More free time to write about how shite Scotland is, no doubt. Can't be long before he gets his gong for services to his beloved Union.

[Stellaboz]

What if Scottish football clubs were told they had to have a quote of black players playing every game? 

What if a Premiership or Championship club can only acquire a League 1 or League 2 standard player with black skin that is quite clearly out of his depth, but has to play due to the quota system? 

[Bairnardo]

What if Scottish football clubs were told they had to have a quote of black players playing every game? 
What if a Premiership or Championship club can only acquire a League 1 or League 2 standard player with black skin that is quite clearly out of his depth, but has to play due to the quota system? 

Do you think professional football on the playing side is an area of concern?

[GordonS]

33 minutes ago, The Skelpit Lug said:

Neil Oliver stands down from his role at NTS. More free time to write about how shite Scotland is, no doubt. Can't be long before he gets his gong for services to his beloved Union.

As someone said, he's 5 minutes from saying the Glencoe Massacre can't have been a massacre because there are still McDonalds.

[GordonS]

8 minutes ago, Stellaboz said:

What if Scottish football clubs were told they had to have a quote of black players playing every game? 

What if a Premiership or Championship club can only acquire a League 1 or League 2 standard player with black skin that is quite clearly out of his depth, but has to play due to the quota system? 

Yes, black players being notoriously bad at football...

A fairer discussion might be around why clubs in areas with high numbers of folk from ethnic minorities, especially Pakistani, don't have more ethnic minority kids in their youth set-ups. I'd be interested in knowing how hard they reach out to the schools etc to attract kids to play. Might quotas incentivise clubs to work harder to encourage talent? Who knows what we might already have missed, and what opportunities have been lost.

[GordonS]

13 hours ago, Mr Waldo said:

Now remember children, I am only quoting specific races because this is BLM thread, swap for male/female if you want.  Possitive discrimination'. We need more black people in 'x' role

1. My qualifications, attitude, everything scores 9/10. I am white.
2. My qualifications, attitude, everything scores 8/10. I am black

Number 2 gets the job to 'fill the quota'. No its or buts.  Discrimination is discrimination.

Do you have any actual examples of this happening?

The reason people support positive discrimination is because it's often the case that if someone from a disadvantaged group scores 8 and someone from a privileged background scores 9, the person who scored 8 will probably be better than the one that scored 9. Universities use this for places, because past scores are not the only, or best, predictor of future success. In Scotland a lot of the beneficiaries of that are white working class boys. 

[GordonS]

15 hours ago, D.A.F.C said:

This afternoon I listened to a show on BBC radio 4 talking to a Muslim women who was welcomed into the police force but was then bullied and harassed when she tried to progress to sergeant. This is what we need to change. Long standing institutional racism within places like the police and Westminster. Not some office in kirkcaldy that has zero problems with racism or subconscious bias because no bame people are applying.
 

Kirkcaldy? Really? That's the example you want to go with?

"He out and out admitted that he was a racist, that he hates them, as he puts it - all the blacks. It's not right he's a police officer."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34529611 

[Bairnardo]

Yes, black players being notoriously bad at football...
A fairer discussion might be around why clubs in areas with high numbers of folk from ethnic minorities, especially Pakistani, don't have more ethnic minority kids in their youth set-ups. I'd be interested in knowing how hard they reach out to the schools etc to attract kids to play. Might quotas incentivise clubs to work harder to encourage talent? Who knows what we might already have missed, and what opportunities have been lost.

This is an interesting one because we simultaneously use the term BAME whilst almost exclusively only discussing the B. Especially in football. What are kids of Asian and Middle Eastern descent doing? They must be playing sport of some kind surelt? Maybe they are more into the likes of cricket? I imagine especially in England that may be the case. The England national team certainly seems well represented by people of Asian descent. There will no doubt be participation studies which would be interesting.

I think in the case of young Asians and Middle Easterns there is a problem 1 tier further up which is that I reckon they are behind black people on terms of integration into society, with a massive upswing in Islamophobia probably being the driver for that. I would be willing to bet that most of us have heard of and witnessed far more open abuse of Asians than black people. It doesnt seem to have made it to the social taboo yet in the same way as racially abusing a black person, and theres no doubt in my mind the association people make with brown person = Muslim and Muslim = bad plays a huge part in that.


I would hope that at youth levels this is improving and it just hasnt been ling enough yet that we have seen players emerge into the pro ranks but I have my doubts about that.

On the point of integration, that's probably the most common calling card of yer idiot facebook bigot. They should speak our language, they shouldnt get their own schools, they should do this and they should do that. I think when you split up the BAME acronym, A, M and E still face the most open and up front racism in Britain.

[Shandon Par]

30 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

33 minutes ago, Stellaboz said:

What if Scottish football clubs were told they had to have a quote of black players playing every game? 
What if a Premiership or Championship club can only acquire a League 1 or League 2 standard player with black skin that is quite clearly out of his depth, but has to play due to the quota system? 

Do you think professional football on the playing side is an area of concern?

Someone - maybe you?  - yesterday made the point about people employing friends or people who "fit in". Nepotism is openly rife, for better or worse, in Scottish football. 

A black player left Dunfermline in the Bert Paton era citing racism. Fans and fellow players felt he was "at it" and was a disruptive presence and that there was no racism towards him. Some of the players he cited though were also called out by other black opposition players and trialists who came to Dunfermline over racial abuse. Maybe they were at it too? 

I'm sure our current management are colour blind and just want the best players but when there is that deep level of signing players who a coach knew at another club, or who another player knows etc etc you can end up with a very homogenous dressing room.  

 

[Shandon Par]

20 hours ago, Binos said:

It's Fife though

Not everywheres as bad as that

I'm moving back there soon so will try and educate the natives. Incredible the amount of actual real grown ups in Fife who have told me all the ills of the world, and Fife in particular, are down to "darkies". Someone in my class at school had a cat called "darkie". A boy my mum taught at primary there said when he grew up he wanted to join the police in South Africa so he could "shoot the blacks". 

[Jacksgranda]

15 minutes ago, Shandon Par said:

I'm moving back there soon so will try and educate the natives. Incredible the amount of actual real grown ups in Fife who have told me all the ills of the world, and Fife in particular, are down to "darkies". Someone in my class at school had a cat called "darkie". A boy my mum taught at primary there said when he grew up he wanted to join the police in South Africa so he could "shoot the blacks". 

"blecks"

[Stellaboz]

1 hour ago, Bairnardo said:

1 hour ago, Stellaboz said:

What if Scottish football clubs were told they had to have a quote of black players playing every game? 
What if a Premiership or Championship club can only acquire a League 1 or League 2 standard player with black skin that is quite clearly out of his depth, but has to play due to the quota system? 

Do you think professional football on the playing side is an area of concern?

Me personally? No. Not in Scotland. But someone else might think so and I think it's discussion has merit in the topic since we are talking about quotas. 

1 hour ago, Tynierose said:

That's an interesting point.   I'm assuming you are basin it on Scottish black players as opposed a black player from any country.  It is of course something that has happened for years in South African sport.  There has been some pluses with increasing exposure and interest in certain sports such as Rugby but a few negatives also.   I like cricket - yes I know - but there have been a few cases of the quota system being used when clearly a player isn't good enough.  The lack of opportunity of  course led England to pick up one of their greatest ever players, Kevin Pietersen who was frustrated with his lack of opportunity.

It's a real catch 22 and it would be difficult to have a quota in place unless the standard is good enough, you could argue for a best practice guidance to clubs though.  

 

56 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Yes, black players being notoriously bad at football...

A fairer discussion might be around why clubs in areas with high numbers of folk from ethnic minorities, especially Pakistani, don't have more ethnic minority kids in their youth set-ups. I'd be interested in knowing how hard they reach out to the schools etc to attract kids to play. Might quotas incentivise clubs to work harder to encourage talent? Who knows what we might already have missed, and what opportunities have been lost.

In Scotland I have no idea where that would be. Possibly Glasgow or Edinburgh? Should we also see a higher amount of Polish kids getting involved and coming through our systems now? 

 

[Bairnardo]

30 minutes ago, Tynierose said:

Interesting points raised Bairnardo and I can chip in with the cricket one .  My son is a decent cricketer and at his club there is a mix of pakistani, bangladeshi, indian and white kids , there is no black children though.    In fact I can't recall seeing a black kid playing cricket last year in any of his games.

In respect of his football, he plays at a decent level for his age but in all his years so far I have seen a handful of Asian kids and the same with black kids, this is surprising as they have been playing games in Glasgow where there is a more multi cultural representation than in the Falkirk area.  

I bet the black representation  in Londan based cricket teams is colossal with the West Indian community down there though. I dont think we really have a strong WI presence in Scotland AFAIK although as usual, happy to be proved wrong as I genuinely dont know. It's fine if young Asian kids simply arent interested in football and would prefer to do other sports and dont find inclusion an issue. Dount that's the case though. 

Theres all sorts of reasons for it tbh. Its a massively complex web, I suspect one reason is the perceived (and all too often very real) attitudes of football fans. At any level, an Asian footballer might reasonably assume he is going to take a disproportionate level of scud from morons. It's the same logic that prevents openly gay players except no one can hide their ethnicity and the parents of young Asian kids might steer them away from football towards other sports for that reason.

[Mark Connolly]

1 hour ago, Stellaboz said:

What if Scottish football clubs were told they had to have a quote of black players playing every game? 

What if a Premiership or Championship club can only acquire a League 1 or League 2 standard player with black skin that is quite clearly out of his depth, but has to play due to the quota system? 

Like when Rangers had Ian Black?

[hk blues]

Talking of Asian footballers, there are plenty of them around but maybe the definition of "Asia" is not as narrow as some think.  

[Binos]

The population of Scotland is not diverse

Not sure why anyone would expect diverse footballers coming through

• 96.0% White
• 2.7% Asian
• 0.7% Black
• 0.4% Mixed
• 0.2% Arab
• 0.1% other

[Hedgecutter]

1 hour ago, Bairnardo said:

I think in the case of young Asians and Middle Easterns there is a problem 1 tier further up which is that I reckon they are behind black people on terms of integration into society, with a massive upswing in Islamophobia probably being the driver for that. I would be willing to bet that most of us have heard of and witnessed far more open abuse of Asians than black people. It doesnt seem to have made it to the social taboo yet in the same way as racially abusing a black person, and theres no doubt in my mind the association people make with brown person = Muslim and Muslim = bad plays a huge part in that.

“ This is a  Christian country” is a common line that you’ll hear on numerous occasions over time, so the fact that a significant number of black people are often Christian (and in my experience, highly devoted ones) would certainly show that there is at least some connection to ‘traditional’ British culture.  Those of Asian decent will typically have little in common in your flag-waving Brit who’ll only show a half-arsed interest in cricket on the final day of the Ashes, at least in the eyes of the flag-wavers.

My step-dad who supports Burnley (saved the lengthy character description there) evidently has a mindset that Asians have no interest in British culture and contribute very little.  When I reminded him that they were invited over to make/keep Burnley a (once) successful industrial area, he simply said “they should have left when the jobs did”.   It’s a mentality that has been set in stone from an early age and you’ve probably got more chance of converting hardcore bible bashers into atheists than getting somebody like my step-dad to see Asians as being equal to them.

Eta:  would it be fair to suggest that a large number of white Brits see those of Asian decent as being subservient due to a higher proportion of ‘Asians’ working as waiters, taxi drivers etc?  “I want a beer, get me one”.  “I want to go here, take me there”.  If my QI book of facts is correct, two out of three Bangladeshis in the UK work as waiters.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Hedgecutter

[GordonS]

7 minutes ago, Shandon Par said:

I'm moving back there soon so will try and educate the natives. Incredible the amount of actual real grown ups in Fife who have told me all the ills of the world, and Fife in particular, are down to "darkies". Someone in my class at school had a cat called "darkie". A boy my mum taught at primary there said when he grew up he wanted to join the police in South Africa so he could "shoot the blacks". 

My missus taught in Fife for 10 years, until recently. I've no idea if Fife is worse than anywhere else in Scotland but some of her stories...

My favourite is a kid who took a very bad reaction to finding out that all our ancestors came from Africa; "ah'm no African, ah'm Irish!" Another said that his family are emigrating to New Zealand "to get away from all the migrants." I'm sure everywhere's much the same though.

[Binos]

6 minutes ago, GordonS said:

My missus taught in Fife for 10 years, until recently. I've no idea if Fife is worse than anywhere else in Scotland but some of her stories...

My favourite is a kid who took a very bad reaction to finding out that all our ancestors came from Africa; "ah'm no African, ah'm Irish!" Another said that his family are emigrating to New Zealand "to get away from all the migrants." I'm sure everywhere's much the same though.

I was joking about fife...but prejudice of any kind and poverty do usually go hand in hand

Is there not some stat that of the 10 most deprived wards in Scotland half are in Fife, which for a region with no cities is some going

[GordonS]

25 minutes ago, Binos said:

The population of Scotland is not diverse

Not sure why anyone would expect diverse footballers coming through

• 96.0% White
• 2.7% Asian
• 0.7% Black
• 0.4% Mixed
• 0.2% Arab
• 0.1% other

Are those figures from the 2011 census? If so, they're a bit out of date now.

In any case, that's more than one in forty in Scotland from an Asian background. In Glasgow that's over 10%, and has been for a long time. Are 10% of the youth players in Glasgow football clubs from Asian-origin families? From what I've seen almost none are.

If, for example, each Premiership club had a first team squad of 25, half of who are Scottish, that's 150 players. You'd expect to see 4-5 Scots Asians in there at any one time. I can think of literally one Scots Asian professional footballer, and he's retired.