Homer Thompson Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 As a season ticket holder I have only one contract but given that I'm inured to bad service from a range of service providers, I'm happy to wait this out and cherish the prospect of getting back in the ground.Sorry, never thought you might be a season ticket holder. In that case youre right, but you're hardly going to be emailing the streaming providers asking for a refund. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 1 hour ago, The Mantis said: I can appreciate everything you’re saying. Although presumably ICT are only getting a proportion after the SPFL take their cut. And I blame ICT/Gardiner for not listening to our complaints from last week. It’s been reported that the pixellot system has worked well without a cameraman at other clubs, in which case the baldy linesman/sun in the camera episode was an accident waiting to happen. As far as I know the SPFL are not making anything out of this. They are a vehicle for the service but the platform is provided by AMG and they will be taking the payment. They apply this to begin refunding the cost of setting up the system for ICT. Once they reach the point that it's paid for (which they never will if it's as bad as reputed) then ICT will get 100% of the rest of the money. ICT will be paying them for every season ticket holder who streams. 1 hour ago, sophia said: I'm sorry but my contract is between me and ICT and I'm not really sure that they have delivered. I lasted until half time last week and once bitten i found myself too busy to be invested yesterday. As it happens in not overly fussed as I recognise that the club doesn't have two brass farthings to rub together and I can forgive them the poor call on a system that is compromised by more than a shiny skull. Yes, yours will be, but I was talking in terms of those actually paying rather than those who have already paid and are receiving it free as a compensation for not being let in. Your complaint absolutely IS with the club. 33 minutes ago, Mr X said: 40 minutes ago, sophia said: As a season ticket holder I have only one contract but given that I'm inured to bad service from a range of service providers, I'm happy to wait this out and cherish the prospect of getting back in the ground. Sorry, never thought you might be a season ticket holder. In that case youre right, but you're hardly going to be emailing the streaming providers asking for a refund. No, his issue is with the club and if I was him I'd absolutely be complaining to them but that's obviously up to him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said: As far as I know the SPFL are not making anything out of this. They are a vehicle for the service but the platform is provided by AMG and they will be taking the payment. They apply this to begin refunding the cost of setting up the system for ICT. Once they reach the point that it's paid for (which they never will if it's as bad as reputed) then ICT will get 100% of the rest of the money. ICT will be paying them for every season ticket holder who streams. Yes, yours will be, but I was talking in terms of those actually paying rather than those who have already paid and are receiving it free as a compensation for not being let in. Your complaint absolutely IS with the club. No, his issue is with the club and if I was him I'd absolutely be complaining to them but that's obviously up to him. The club never gets 100% of the money. Once the fixed cost is paid for the revenue is split between AMG and the clubs (via the SPFL) Im pretty sure you are right, though, that the SPFL are not making any money out of this ETA - actually, definitely sure now. I just re-read it and it specifically confirms that they wont Edited November 1, 2020 by Mr X 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 5 minutes ago, Mr X said: The club never gets 100% of the money. Once the fixed cost is paid for the revenue is split between AMG and the clubs (via the SPFL) Im pretty sure you are right, though, that the SPFL are not making any money out of this ETA - actually, definitely sure now. I just re-read it and it specifically confirms that they wont Sorry my error, I really meant they won't physically be receiving any of it just now but it's going to clear their debt. You are right of course, there's a revenue share agreement once the debt is clear. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandyCromarty Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 To my mind the club is wholly responsible. If you purchase a laptop from PC World then a guarantee is provided. However other than making the purchase there is no further investment in PC World. Football is a wholly different platform. In football we invest in a club initially with the purchase of a Season Ticket, further investment is continued throughout the season in Cup games ticket purchases, hospitality and buying team products from the shop, throughout all of this we do expect a level of service which meets our expectations. If we shell out and buy the overpriced seasons strip, we do it without a murmur so as to help our club, if the stitching on the strip falls apart on the first wash we do not complain to the manufacturer but directly to the club as they approved the strip for sale to fans. Similarly the club has approved a system therebye assuring the fans that it meets all our expectations and it is fit for purpose. The Pixellot system is unfit for purpose and the responsibility lies with ICT. Other clubs have rightly chosen not to use this system why do we persist with it? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheScarf Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 Yep, the club need to realise the unmanned camera doesn't work and then come up with a better solution. People are just going to stop paying. We have our own highlights package filmed by a chap called Andy I believe? They're always great highlights and you get 2 or 3 different angles on the replays of each goal. He does a fantastic job. Can we not just use his recording of the game work as our own stream like Dunfermline do? This is on the club,100%. They know the coverage is shite and they need to sort it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 4 minutes ago, SandyCromarty said: To my mind the club is wholly responsible. If you purchase a laptop from PC World then a guarantee is provided. However other than making the purchase there is no further investment in PC World. Football is a wholly different platform. In football we invest in a club initially with the purchase of a Season Ticket, further investment is continued throughout the season in Cup games ticket purchases, hospitality and buying team products from the shop, throughout all of this we do expect a level of service which meets our expectations. If we shell out and buy the overpriced seasons strip, we do it without a murmur so as to help our club, if the stitching on the strip falls apart on the first wash we do not complain to the manufacturer but directly to the club as they approved the strip for sale to fans. Similarly the club has approved a system therebye assuring the fans that it meets all our expectations and it is fit for purpose. The Pixellot system is unfit for purpose and the responsibility lies with ICT. Other clubs have rightly chosen not to use this system why do we persist with it? If you purchase a laptop from PC World your contract is with PC World. No matter how much they may try to fob you off with a manufacturer's guarantee, if it doesn't work entirely as described you are entitled to demand a full refund from PC World. That's Sale of Goods Act 101. You are correct, the provision of the streaming service, for season ticket holders at least, is entirely the responsibility of the club. It's debatable with whom the responsibility lies for PPV sales but it's still the club who look bad when it doesn't work. I imagine the reason you persist with it is because although it's not cheap, up front costs for the club are Nil. Alternately it's because it requires precisely zero input from the club and will be dealt with by others without the club having to source anyone else whether volunteer or paid. There can't be any other reason really. Has to be one or other of those or a combination of the two. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 2 minutes ago, TheScarf said: Can we not just use his recording of the game work as our own stream like Dunfermline do? As a minimum you would need an on site producer / engineer, software to stream it (potentially more to add commentary and of course commentators), microphones, hardware, a fibre line or 4G dongle with a strong enough signal, and most crucially a platform to handle the payment collection and another for the downloading. Presuming you don't already have any of that since you didn't intend to self stream, then that's not a snap your fingers and make it happen job. The clubs who are doing their own streaming have either been doing it for years or have had weeks to set it up and test it (and in our case jumped in bed with Dunfermline). I imagine it's much preferable for your Board to believe assurances the Pixellot product will get better than to invest that time and money in a new system after two games. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandyCromarty Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 2 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said: If you purchase a laptop from PC World your contract is with PC World. No matter how much they may try to fob you off with a manufacturer's guarantee, if it doesn't work entirely as described you are entitled to demand a full refund from PC World. That's Sale of Goods Act 101. You are correct, the provision of the streaming service, for season ticket holders at least, is entirely the responsibility of the club. It's debatable with whom the responsibility lies for PPV sales but it's still the club who look bad when it doesn't work. I imagine the reason you persist with it is because although it's not cheap, up front costs for the club are Nil. Alternately it's because it requires precisely zero input from the club and will be dealt with by others without the club having to source anyone else whether volunteer or paid. There can't be any other reason really. Has to be one or other of those or a combination of the two. The problem is that the club, knowing full well there are major problems with the system, have not responded to the many fans complaints. Instead the only comment has been in the P & J that all is well. It's the old saying, 'some people walk against the wind and some fools pish into it'. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 The problem is that the club, knowing full well there are major problems with the system, have not responded to the many fans complaints. Instead the only comment has been in the P & J that all is well. It's the old saying, 'some people walk against the wind and some fools pish into it'. That part is completely unforgivable.I think there's a defence of how ICT ended up in this situation, as SD outlined, but theres no defence for how they've handled it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeodhasXD Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said: As a minimum you would need an on site producer / engineer, software to stream it (potentially more to add commentary and of course commentators), microphones, hardware, a fibre line or 4G dongle with a strong enough signal, and most crucially a platform to handle the payment collection and another for the downloading. Presuming you don't already have any of that since you didn't intend to self stream, then that's not a snap your fingers and make it happen job. The clubs who are doing their own streaming have either been doing it for years or have had weeks to set it up and test it (and in our case jumped in bed with Dunfermline). I imagine it's much preferable for your Board to believe assurances the Pixellot product will get better than to invest that time and money in a new system after two games. Ignoring the cost of employing someone with that kind of knowledge and expertise... A conservative estimate from me (that has since been blown out the water by the actual number of viewers) I calculated the costs of streaming at about £4,000 for the season plus about £2000 on equipment. Costs scale with viewers.. pretty much just the video bandwidth for 1660 users as Dunfermline mentioned would cost you £8000 per year. And there's a big unknown to me based on how much we'd need to scale our website to serve the demand which is what Morton royally messed up in week 1. In the end we're cheaper with Pixellot. We save a lot of time and work on the actual platform because that's what we're paying them for. Plus since I'm busy on a matchday I'd not be able to fix anything should we get DDoS'ed or something breaks. Whereas Pixellot have the expertise and a team for that. Unlike Inverness we keep almost 100% what we make on our platform although they don't have any fees they'll not be making an income because they'll be paying off costs. If I get my way and I can mix pixellot's camera under manual control in with behind the goals/closeup camera/replays... To beat that ideal setup you'd need to be using a team like the BBC which we will never ever have. Either in the manpower or funds to try. Edited November 2, 2020 by LeodhasXD 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 Ignoring the cost of employing someone with that kind of knowledge and expertise... A conservative estimate from me (that has since been blown out the water by the actual number of viewers) I calculated the costs of streaming at about £4,000 for the season plus about £2000 on equipment. Costs scale with viewers.. pretty much just the video bandwidth for 1660 users as Dunfermline mentioned would cost you £8000 per year. And there's a big unknown to me based on how much we'd need to scale our website to serve the demand which is what Morton royally messed up in week 1. In the end we're cheaper with Pixellot. We save a lot of time and work on the actual platform because that's what we're paying them for. Plus since I'm busy on a matchday I'd not be able to fix anything should we get DDoS'ed or something breaks. Whereas Pixellot have the expertise and a team for that. Unlike Inverness we keep almost 100% what we make on our platform although they don't have any fees they'll not be making an income because they'll be paying off costs. If I get my way and I can mix pixellot's camera under manual control in with behind the goals/closeup camera/replays... To beat that ideal setup you'd need to be using a team like the BBC which we will never ever have. Either in the manpower or funds to try. 1660 viewers won't cost Dunfermline anywhere near £8000 for the season - not with 13 home games anyway. The equipment cost would vary quite significantly depending what you already had. If you're starting from scratch I would say £2000 is too low if you include audio equipment for commentary. Being cheaper is obviously relative. You're certainly better off working directly with pixellot than going through the spfl platform, and not just financially. I hope you get the setup you want with pixellot but I won't be holding my breath for you. Its really good, though, that at least one club is pushing them to improve and do things they otherwise wouldn't have bothered with. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeodhasXD Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 34 minutes ago, Mr X said: 1660 viewers won't cost Dunfermline anywhere near £8000 for the season - not with 13 home games anyway. The equipment cost would vary quite significantly depending what you already had. If you're starting from scratch I would say £2000 is too low if you include audio equipment for commentary. Being cheaper is obviously relative. You're certainly better off working directly with pixellot than going through the spfl platform, and not just financially. I hope you get the setup you want with pixellot but I won't be holding my breath for you. Its really good, though, that at least one club is pushing them to improve and do things they otherwise wouldn't have bothered with. Apologies. My prices are in dollars! 30cents per game per user for the bandwidth*1660*16 home games assuming they have no TV games and 3 home cup games too. Assuming I've not cocked anything else up that spreadsheet that's fairly close to £6000. couple cheap xlr mics and an interface<-Laptop->capture card-> decent tripod->camera probably right that that's tight at £2000 maybe bump it to £3000 then. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 Apologies. My prices are in dollars! 30cents per game per user for the bandwidth*1660*16 home games assuming they have no TV games and 3 home cup games too. Assuming I've not cocked anything else up that spreadsheet that's fairly close to £6000. couple cheap xlr mics and an interfacecapture card-> decent tripod->camera probably right that that's tight at £2000 maybe bump it to £3000 then.Ah, OK. At dollars it looks a lot better!We spent the bulk of our money on a decent laptop to manage the streams. I have no idea the cost of cameras but that also looks more reasonable 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lichtgilphead Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 9 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said: If you purchase a laptop from PC World your contract is with PC World. No matter how much they may try to fob you off with a manufacturer's guarantee, if it doesn't work entirely as described you are entitled to demand a full refund from PC World. That's Sale of Goods Act 101. That would be the Sale of Goods Act that was replaced by the Consumer Rights Act on 1st October 2015? Yes, I am a pedantic c*nt. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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