craigkillie Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 I don't think he used the expansion to 26 to "take 3 younger players along". Patterson was the second choice right-back and would presumably have been picked even if it was a 23, I don't think he was a "bonus" player. Turnbull definitely was, and then one of Fleck/Gilmour, since I think only one would have gone otherwise. I'm not sure who the other beneficiary was, probably James Forrest, who'd had a fairly injury ravaged season and had only played once for Scotland in about 18 months. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Scotch Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 3 hours ago, 2426255 said: I understand that, my point was more if Steve Clarke decides he would rather just do what he did at Euro-2020 and take 3 younger players along then Johnston would be one that is young, has been involved before and can cover an area where there is potential for a shortage. So it would just come down to that unanswerable question of how Clarke chooses to use the three additional spaces. Eh isn't it fairly obvious... in the main he will go with his trusty lieutenants and then suitable players where we need the cover? So if Patterson/Hickey is out then he will add in two RWB's 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 25 minutes ago, Butters Scotch said: Eh isn't it fairly obvious... in the main he will go with his trusty lieutenants and then suitable players where we need the cover? So if Patterson/Hickey is out then he will add in two RWB's Stating the bleeding obvious here but if Patterson and Hickey are out and he replaces them with two RWB's (Ralston and McCrorie most likely) then that's not relevant to how he's using the extra spaces. Taking two more right backs PLUS Hickey and Patterson because they are a doubt would be him using the extra spaces though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 (edited) 1 hour ago, craigkillie said: I don't think he used the expansion to 26 to "take 3 younger players along". Patterson was the second choice right-back and would presumably have been picked even if it was a 23, I don't think he was a "bonus" player. Turnbull definitely was, and then one of Fleck/Gilmour, since I think only one would have gone otherwise. I'm not sure who the other beneficiary was, probably James Forrest, who'd had a fairly injury ravaged season and had only played once for Scotland in about 18 months. I did think that until fairly recently. Clarke has subsequently said [recently] that the additional three spaces were used for those three. I dont have the quote to hand - but ill find it, post it and you can make up your own mind. I understand the point re: Patterson. It's possible Fraser and Forrest were O'Donnell's cover. I believe Forrest played RWB when he came on (for O'Donnell) against Czech Rep. Edited April 24 by 2426255 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyDD Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 20 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said: If Hickey's fit you don't need "A N Other" left back. If Robertson is unavailable Hickey would switch wings and if he's unavailable Tierney would step out of central. No reason to take Taylor, Doig or anyone else. Of course that goalpost moves if Hickey doesn't make it or indeed if the squad size is moved to 26 as now appears likely. Yeah, I'm working on the assumption that it will be 26. Okay, you don't need another left back, but I think it makes logical sense to have a direct replacement that could go into left back should Robertson need to be subbed off at any point, whilst also allowing yourself to keep your defence otherwise unchanged, as opposed to having to add a new CB to push Tierney out to left-back, or another right back to allow you to switch Hickey over, or changing formation. You might want to keep everything else as is, and taking another left back in the squad means you can if you like. Hickey is presumably more likely than in normal circumstances to pull up during a game, or need replacing during a game, so having extra cover for that position seems sensible to me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Scotch Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 22 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said: Stating the bleeding obvious here but if Patterson and Hickey are out and he replaces them with two RWB's (Ralston and McCrorie most likely) then that's not relevant to how he's using the extra spaces. Taking two more right backs PLUS Hickey and Patterson because they are a doubt would be him using the extra spaces though. That's not what I said... He will take all of his trusty lieutenants first of all, guys that won't get a game or get very few minutes so guys like Brown, Jack etc. If he's taking half fit players then he will no doubt bring in extra cover for these guys like your McCrories/Johnston's. The reason Clarke brought in young guys for the last euros is that we were majory weak at RB (Patterson) and Gilmour in particular was better than the other options we had, don 't think you can claim he brought them in to give them experience, they were genuinely good options -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyDD Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 13 hours ago, craigkillie said: We also had 4 goalkeepers in the last squad, but we won't be taking 4 to Germany with us. I think that was about avoiding having to "drop" someone prematurely if there ended up being injuries anyway. The last Euros squad only had 10 defenders in it out of 26 players, albeit McTominay also played centre-back at the tournament. There were 4 full-backs and 6 centre-backs (including Tierney). Even if you add an extra centre-back to account for McTominay, that's only taking you to 11. Clarke is loyal to his core group of players, but there has always been a cut-off point for that loyalty, and players have eventually been dropped, including guys like Palmer being binned for the last tournament when he could obviously easily have been taken ahead of someone like Turnbull who was a new face to the squad. Yeah I'm sure that's exactly why he took 4 goalkeepers. 10 the last euros plus McTominay, so clearly 12 defenders isn't some strange suggestion, nor would it be a significant departure from the last time. I think given that Hickey will be going in the circumstances that he is, additional cover at right back makes sense, and taking an extra actual right back over a centre mid like Jack who can cover there in a pinch is probably a better shout. The extra spaces available could go to fringe midfielders or forwards, but I think it's marginally more likely he'll use them to add one (or two if we aren't counting McTominay) defender compared to last time to allow for cover at right-back and centre back. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 At the last tournament, he already didn't use two of those 10 defenders at all (Taylor and Gallagher), and only gave one some minutes at the end for experience (Patterson), so it would be a fairly big departure from that. If you want to take an extra right-back, fair enough, but even at that you're still not getting to 12 unless you also pick 7 centre-backs which seems ludicrous to me. We already have Tierney, Hendry, Porteous, McKenna and two of Souttar, Hanley and Cooper, so I don't see why we would need any additional cover at centre-back. Getting three injuries in those postions would be extremely unlikely, and even if we did then you have guys like McLean and McTominay who have experience playing there before. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 32 minutes ago, craigkillie said: At the last tournament, he already didn't use two of those 10 defenders at all (Taylor and Gallagher), and only gave one some minutes at the end for experience (Patterson), so it would be a fairly big departure from that. If you want to take an extra right-back, fair enough, but even at that you're still not getting to 12 unless you also pick 7 centre-backs which seems ludicrous to me. We already have Tierney, Hendry, Porteous, McKenna and two of Souttar, Hanley and Cooper, so I don't see why we would need any additional cover at centre-back. Getting three injuries in those postions would be extremely unlikely, and even if we did then you have guys like McLean and McTominay who have experience playing there before. Indeed. But if we're at a stage where he genuinely thinks he's not going to play those extra 3 players in nearly any circumstance, then might he simply use the three spaces to reward loyal servants who might otherwise not make it such as Taylor, Souttar and Jack if they weren't in the initial 23? Hence my slightly mischievous suggestion that he might use one of the extra three to take a 4th keeper and save him disappointing one of his most loyal. I don't seriously expect him to do that as he can call a goalkeeper up in the event of a tournament ending injury so it's pointless, but it would save him a decision. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyDD Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 It'll depend on what, if anything, Clarke wants to do differently from the last time. That he didn't use two defenders doesn't necessarily mean he thinks it was a mistake to take them. He regularly brings players to squads without giving them gametime. What they bring to the group and what he wants to do training wise will factor into his selection, along with how many differences he wants to make to how he fills his squad compared to last time, or if he felt that was more or les bang on. He could depart significantly from the way he made up his squad last time, but he rarely seems to make significant departures. I'd expect it to be similar vis a vis number of defensive options, and 1 or 2 players either way is not a significant departure. Him going for extras this time as added cover given the circumstances around right back and Grant Hanley is plausible. I certainly don't think he'll take less than 10. He might, but that would be a departure from the norm. Three right backs (Hickey and two covers), Tierney, two left backs (Robertson and one other) and six centre backs takes you to twelve without it being especially outrageous or ludicrous. If he ends up taking Porteous, Hanley, Hendry, McKenna, Cooper and Souttar I don't imagine anyone stands back in astonishment, especially since there will be fitness doubts over Hanley and the fact that he seems to greatly value Cooper. One of those not making it is entirely possible, especially since Tierney is going to be playing but again, I'm not sure what forward or midfielder gets the space opened up by dropping one or more of those listed players. He might decide just to take two right backs, he might decide to use Tierney and Hickey as his back up leftbacks and not have any at all on the bench, but the defensive make up of the squad is unlikely to be far off that. 10 defenders plus McTominay last time , I don't see what's ludicrous or especially mental about suggesting he might take 11 plus an extra right back this time, all things considered. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 20 minutes ago, AndyDD said: Three right backs (Hickey and two covers), Tierney, two left backs (Robertson and one other) and six centre backs takes you to twelve without it being especially outrageous or ludicrous. Taking five wing-backs and seven centre backs is clearly ludicrous, especially when we only play with two wing-backs and three centre-backs and have others who can cover there in a fully blown injury crisis. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyDD Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 29 minutes ago, craigkillie said: Taking five wing-backs and seven centre backs is clearly ludicrous, especially when we only play with two wing-backs and three centre-backs and have others who can cover there in a fully blown injury crisis. Given that we took four wingbacks, Tierney, five centre backs and mctominay to the last one, I really don't see how it is, especially when you factor in the potential to give hickey extra cover. It is similar to the last euros squad. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 It's not similar at all if you have two extra defenders in the squad. McTominay started the Czech game in midfield so it's not as though he was being taken purely to play at the back. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Sensible Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 Regarding the goalkeeper situation, I’m sure I read somewhere that you can replace an injured keeper after the tournament starts If that is true then it means you can effectively take 4 keepers in a 27 man squad 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 (edited) 23 hours ago, craigkillie said: I don't think he used the expansion to 26 to "take 3 younger players along". Patterson was the second choice right-back and would presumably have been picked even if it was a 23, I don't think he was a "bonus" player. Turnbull definitely was, and then one of Fleck/Gilmour, since I think only one would have gone otherwise. I'm not sure who the other beneficiary was, probably James Forrest, who'd had a fairly injury ravaged season and had only played once for Scotland in about 18 months. Not maybe as conclusive as I remember, but here's the quote I referred to earlier. Quote With the COVID situation there was an enlarged squad so it was a chance for me to bring three extra players in. I looked at what was around, what I could do. Looking at the younger ones in the squad at that time it was David Turnbull, Nathan Patterson and Billy [Gilmour], who I’d obviously heard a lot about through my contacts at Chelsea at the time. Steve Clarke https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIFafl72pcs I wonder if a player who would have been picked in the 23-man squad might lose out when it goes to a 26-man squad for the Summer. Euro-2020 could be an example of where that happened if Nathan Patterson and James Forrest ticked more boxes than Liam Palmer (+1). If for example Anthony Ralston (+1) were to miss out in favour of Ryan Fraser and Max Johnston - that sort of idea in terms of the combination of players rather than just direct 1 for 1 swaps. Edited April 25 by 2426255 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jives Miguel Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 10 hours ago, Captain_Sensible said: Regarding the goalkeeper situation, I’m sure I read somewhere that you can replace an injured keeper after the tournament starts If that is true then it means you can effectively take 4 keepers in a 27 man squad You still wanting Ben Doak to be called up cos he got subbed on for 10 mins in August against Chelsea? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bing.McCrosby Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 2 minutes ago, Jives Miguel said: You still wanting Ben Doak to be called up cos he got subbed on for 10 mins in August against Chelsea? Imagine him not knowing Doak was going to be injured long term 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyDD Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 13 hours ago, craigkillie said: It's not similar at all if you have two extra defenders in the squad. McTominay started the Czech game in midfield so it's not as though he was being taken purely to play at the back. Two strikes me as a pretty small difference, rather than being 'not similar at all'. Shankland will replace Nisbet, but if he decides to replace, say, Turnbull and Fleck, with extra defenders, the difference is hardly seismic. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoBNob Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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