G'Day! Ange's Gap Year Celtic Euro Backpacking Tour 2021/22.

[Molotov]

2 hours ago, Luddite said:

For me, Jim McLean is the greatest (British?) manager of all time. Closely followed by Clough, but Clough was managing a bigger team in a bigger city in a bigger country and a richer league. He was able to break the transfer record on a striker to help him win European trophies.

If we are rating managers based on their resources and what they attained with them then its McLean No.1 for me.

Jim McLean was a great manager but there is no way he can be compared to Clough, Paisley, Stein or Ferguson.

His major honours are 1 league title and two league cups. That’s it in over 2 decades.

All the managers listed above achieved 3 major honours in a single season!

Clough did absolute wonders at Derby County and Nottingham Forest. 
Paisley built a legacy that lasted decades as did Ferguson north and south of the border. 

Jock Stein led the way with success at multiple clubs, first European Cup and World Cup qualifying at national level on two occasions. 

[willywastecoat]

1 hour ago, Luddite said:

All football clubs competing in the Champion's League are Thatcherite/Neoliberal.

Every single aspect of our lives has been captured by this mentality, there is no alternative .

There is no avoiding this reality so you can try to engage with the world constantly striving to remain aware of the cognitive dissonance that is required to navigate it, and making efforts, where possible, to stay awake, reject media-created bullshit when you can (like Celtic PLC) and realise when you are being lied to (*hint* it's always) and, more importantly, when you are lying to yourself.

 

Or, you can try to deny the utter psychological horror that is living in the 21st century and take shelter in the lie that those 11 men running around in green and white hoops with the little clover on it are representative of the same meaning/values of 100 or even 50 years ago.

 

FC United of Manchester are a perfect example of how ideals become jettisoned when factions of people start craving status i.e "we reject all commercialization of our community project" becomes "lets show ambition and move on up through the leagues" (last I checked there was a battle taking place within their club, not sure where that currently stands but I have my predictions on how it will eventually end up).

 

Assigning current political labels like "Torie" or "Left-leaning" is meaningless. We're all Thatcherites now, and have been for 40 years. You/your club chose to adopt your enemies tactics, the results were inevitable.

 

I like your posts better than monkey's in some ways that's a complement M8, the first thing is I seperate the business side of the game to what I see on the park, the sport is still 11 v 11 with all the emotions that go with it, kinda like work and family life.
I get the privatisation bit everything has a price but we all still have a choice to pay for that.
I grew up with politics in my house, my Mum was a politician and now my sister is one it's a toxic profession.
Thatcherism is still here and probably helped the SNP into power with the draconian measures she put in place and I agree it takes decades to erode them.
Football is no different to any industry moving from analog to a digital world,you can kick and scream about it or accept it, good or bad it's progress.

[Luddite]

3 hours ago, Molotov said:

Jim McLean was a great manager but there is no way he can be compared to Clough, Paisley, Stein or Ferguson.

His major honours are 1 league title and two league cups. That’s it in over 2 decades.

All the managers listed above achieved 3 major honours in a single season!

Clough did absolute wonders at Derby County and Nottingham Forest. 
Paisley built a legacy that lasted decades as did Ferguson north and south of the border. 

Jock Stein led the way with success at multiple clubs, first European Cup and World Cup qualifying at national level on two occasions. 

I judge managers on what they attain with the resources available to them. All the managers you mentioned had far greater resources.  Had Jim Mclean been able to break the transfer record for a striker (as Clough was able to), I dare say he'd have won a lot more trophies.  Trophy counting is too absolute in my view, I try to take a more relative outlook. 

 

Clough could have won another league title with Forest but he dismantled his team too quickly, Stein should have had at least one more ECC.  Paisley inherited Shankly's well-oiled machine, all he had to do was keep the engine running. Shankly put everything in place and I doubt Paisley would have been able to build what Shankly did from scratch.  Just my opinion.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Luddite

[Monkey Tennis]

The managers either side of Paisley achieved great success at Liverpool too.  I very much doubt if he was any great genius to be honest.

I'd probably put McLean's achievements ahead of Stein's.  Obviously, he did well at Celtic, but there was nothing particularly notable about what he managed with Scotland.

[Jinky67]

22 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

The managers either side of Paisley achieved great success at Liverpool too.  I very much doubt if he was any great genius to be honest.

I'd probably put McLean's achievements ahead of Stein's.  Obviously, he did well at Celtic, but there was nothing particularly notable about what he managed with Scotland.

[Molotov]

28 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

The managers either side of Paisley achieved great success at Liverpool too.  I very much doubt if he was any great genius to be honest.

I'd probably put McLean's achievements ahead of Stein's.  Obviously, he did well at Celtic, but there was nothing particularly notable about what he managed with Scotland.

Jock Stein performed miracles as a young manager at Dunfermline. 
He managed to win the Scottish cup with Dunfermline around a year after taking charge and subsequently took them deep in Europe. 

Jim McLean despite over 20 years in charge never managed one single Scottish cup triumph. 

[Monkey Tennis]

9 minutes ago, Molotov said:

Jock Stein performed miracles as a young manager at Dunfermline. 
He managed to win the Scottish cup with Dunfermline around a year after taking charge and subsequently took them deep in Europe. 

Jim McLean despite over 20 years in charge never managed one single Scottish cup triumph. 

I know all this.

Stein had something, but what McLean brought a club from and to was remarkable.  

As you concede, he did win a couple of Cups and came close often enough in the Scottish Cup.  Winning the title was a tremendous achievement.  They also did well in Europe.

Doing what Stein did with Celtic was impressive but conceivable.  What McLean managed scarcely was.

[Molotov]

14 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I know all this.

Stein had something, but what McLean brought a club from and to was remarkable.  

As you concede, he did win a couple of Cups and came close often enough in the Scottish Cup.  Winning the title was a tremendous achievement.  They also did well in Europe.

Doing what Stein did with Celtic was impressive but conceivable.  What McLean managed scarcely was.

Ok so you clearly write off Steins record at Dunfermline and Hibs. 

You clearly write off Steins record in European football. 

Quarter final ECWC with Dunfermline 

Two EC finals with Celtic - one win one loss.

Semifinal ECWC with Celtic. 

As for the other great Scottish manager Alex Ferguson left a legacy in Paisley that lasted over 10 years when Alex Smith triumphed with arguably a poorer side compared to years before. Alex Smith then went on to Aberdeen and lifted another Scottish cup. 
Poor wee Jim’s face must have been tripping by not winning that trophy. 

He was a great manager but no way can you compare what he achieved in Scotland and Europe with Stein and Ferguson. 

Tinted Tangerine glasses methinks. 

[Monkey Tennis]

11 minutes ago, Molotov said:

Ok so you clearly write off Steins record at Dunfermline and Hibs. 

You clearly write off Steins record in European football. 

Quarter final ECWC with Dunfermline 

Two EC finals with Celtic - one win one loss.

Semifinal ECWC with Celtic. 

As for the other great Scottish manager Alex Ferguson left a legacy in Paisley that lasted over 10 years when Alex Smith triumphed with arguably a poorer side compared to years before. Alex Smith then went on to Aberdeen and lifted another Scottish cup. 
Poor wee Jim’s face must have been tripping by not winning that trophy. 

He was a great manager but no way can you compare what he achieved in Scotland and Europe with Stein and Ferguson. 

Tinted Tangerine glasses methinks. 

There's nothing remotely tangerine about my glasses.  Why would there be?

[Molotov]

Just now, Monkey Tennis said:

There's nothing remotely tangerine about my glasses.  Why would there be?

Your argument just doesn’t stack up.

The two greatest Scottish managers who dominated domestically for long periods and also achieved major success in Europe are Stein and Ferguson.
Had Roma not bribed the referee then perhaps Jim could have been right up there if they had beaten Liverpool in Rome. But sadly his record domestically and in Europe is not as good as the two examples I’ve provided. 

[Monkey Tennis]

1 minute ago, Molotov said:

Your argument just doesn’t stack up.

The two greatest Scottish managers who dominated domestically for long periods and also achieved major success in Europe are Stein and Ferguson.
Had Roma not bribed the referee then perhaps Jim could have been right up there if they had beaten Liverpool in Rome. But sadly his record domestically and in Europe is not as good as the two examples I’ve provided. 

Yes, but achieving more in absolute terms at Celtic does not necessarily mean you're a better manager than someone who achieves less at Dundee United, does it?

[Jinky67]

45 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I know all this.

Stein had something, but what McLean brought a club from and to was remarkable.  

As you concede, he did win a couple of Cups and came close often enough in the Scottish Cup.  Winning the title was a tremendous achievement.  They also did well in Europe.

Doing what Stein did with Celtic was impressive but conceivable.  What McLean managed scarcely was.

Your’e at the wind up

[Molotov]

Just now, Monkey Tennis said:

Yes, but achieving more in absolute terms at Celtic does not necessarily mean you're a better manager than someone who achieves less at Dundee United, does it?

Alex Ferguson had the measure of Jim McLeans high flying Dundee United team in 1977 in the Scottish Cup when a few part time lower league opponents pumped them 4-1.

It set the scene for the following decade of domination by Fergie over wee Jim. 

He was good but not in the same league as Stein or Ferguson. 

[Monkey Tennis]

Just now, Jinky67 said:

Your’e at the wind up

I'm genuinely not.

Alright, I'll concede that Stein achieved great things, particularly at Dunfermline.  

 

I absolutely believe that Jim McLean, nasty wee bully that he undoubtedly was, was a tremendous manager who kept that United side at the top of our game for a long time.  I can't think of another manager that's really done something comparable with a club of that size in Scotland.

[Monkey Tennis]

3 minutes ago, Molotov said:

Alex Ferguson had the measure of Jim McLeans high flying Dundee United team in 1977 in the Scottish Cup when a few part time lower league opponents pumped them 4-1.

It set the scene for the following decade of domination by Fergie over wee Jim. 

He was good but not in the same league as Stein or Ferguson. 

Ferguson has the edge over him, albeit with a bigger club.

Any kind of Stein comparison breaks down though.   There is nothing remarkable about Celtic winning lots of trophies. 

It's a shame he didn't stay at Leeds for longer.  It might have given us a better chance of assessing his worth, in the way we got to with Lennon, Smith and Rodgers.

[Molotov]

12 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I'm genuinely not.

Alright, I'll concede that Stein achieved great things, particularly at Dunfermline.  

 

I absolutely believe that Jim McLean, nasty wee bully that he undoubtedly was, was a tremendous manager who kept that United side at the top of our game for a long time.  I can't think of another manager that's really done something comparable with a club of that size in Scotland.

Ok take the Stein out of “your” equation. 
Alex Ferguson achieved far more than Jim Mclean with Aberdeen domestically and in Europe with both playing in stadiums with same size and without massive expenditure. He bought and sold very well in the transfer market at Aberdeen.

 

[Monkey Tennis]

Just now, Molotov said:

Ok take the Stein out of “your” equation. 
Alex Ferguson achieved far more than Jim Mclean with Aberdeen domestically and in Europe with both playing in stadiums with same size and without massive expenditure. He bought and sold very well in the transfer market at Aberdeen.

 

Yes, a bigger club though, who had won trophies before he got there.  

[Luddite]

1 hour ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I know all this.

Stein had something, but what McLean brought a club from and to was remarkable.  

As you concede, he did win a couple of Cups and came close often enough in the Scottish Cup.  Winning the title was a tremendous achievement.  They also did well in Europe.

Doing what Stein did with Celtic was impressive but conceivable.  What McLean managed scarcely was.

This

[Molotov]

Just now, Monkey Tennis said:

Yes, a bigger club though, who had won trophies before he got there.  

Dearie me. 

If you are honestly saying that Jim McLean is the greatest ever Scottish manager you need to give yourself a wee shake. 

[Luddite]

I can't speak for @Monkey Tennis but I don't think either of us are disrespecting Stein or Fergie, or  trying to claim that what they did wasn't impressive.  I am just of the opinion that what Jim McLean accomplished is MORE impressive.